Just As Pagan

[allsmiles]

a couple of days ago Clete mentioned in the Feng Shui thread that Taoism with it's Yin and Yang was a pagan "religion", i mentioned in reply that christianity is based on the dualism of god and satan, just as zoroastrianism is based on the dualism between ahura mazda and angra mainyu.

i would like all of my pagan brothers and sisters to help me come up with some more examples of christian paganism, whether it be theological, ritualistic or whatever.

Dualism is a good place to start. god and satan, ahura mazda and angra mainyu, yin and yang, etc.

 

[Justin (Wiccan)]

a couple of days ago Clete mentioned in the Feng Shui thread that Taoism with it's Yin and Yang was a pagan "religion", i mentioned in reply that christianity is based on the dualism of god and satan, just as zoroastrianism is based on the dualism between ahura mazda and angra mainyu.

i would like all of my pagan brothers and sisters to help me come up with some more examples of christian paganism, whether it be theological, ritualistic or whatever.

Dualism is a good place to start. god and satan, ahura mazda and angra mainyu, yin and yang, etc.

Eh ... big problem. Technically speaking, "Dualist Christianity" is a heresy that's not supported by their scriptures, nor by the tradition or doctrines of many of the mainstream sects. Catholicism, Orthodox, and most Protestant sects have long stood against such teachings ... it's mostly the "fringe groups" such as (in modern times) Liberation Theology and Dominion Theology that get into such things.

 

[monochrome]

Well, there's the One True God and the Demiurge of gnostisism. I always liked that one. Of course, any real gnostic takes the story as moral principle rather than factual occurance anyway.

Oooh! and the Light side versus the Dark side of the force. That's a good one too. I'll come up with a better answer (one worth reading) after lunch. Maybe.

- m -

 

[allsmiles]

Justin, there's no black and white relationship between the christian god and satan?

 

[monochrome]

Eh ... big problem. Technically speaking, "Dualist Christianity" is a heresy that's not supported by their scriptures, nor by the tradition or doctrines of many of the mainstream sects. Catholicism, Orthodox, and most Protestant sects have long stood against such teachings ... it's mostly the "fringe groups" such as (in modern times) Liberation Theology and Dominion Theology that get into such things.

*hides under desk* Don't remind me of the bad men! I was raised at a Dominion-based church, which is why I find this topic interesting.

Even in the churches who speak out against these teachings, however, I find that dualism is still prevelant. It may be harder to spot, but there's still going to be talk of either "man's choice to follow Gor or Satan" or "God or Satan battling over man".

Perhaps I haven't sat through enough semons at other churches to really get a good view of it though.

- m -

 

[allsmiles]

gor verses satan.

interesting... :think:

 

[Granite]

Knowledge from a tree?

 

[Justin (Wiccan)]

Justin, there's no black and white relationship between the christian god and satan?

"Black and white"--yes. But dualism is a different critter entirely, where both "sides" of the battle are of equal (or almost equal) force, and it's a constant state of war between the two--in some mythologies, there's doubt as to whom will win. Think Star Wars, but the Jedi and Sith would be angels and demons.

For what you're talking about that's a "binary" religion--either you is, or you ain't. That's not terribly uncommon in Abrahamic religions, but it is a significant difference with Paganism.

 

[Balder]

Blood sacrifice to appease/satisfy a deity.

 

[allsmiles]

"Black and white"--yes. But dualism is a different critter entirely, where both "sides" of the battle are of equal (or almost equal) force, and it's a constant state of war between the two--in some mythologies, there's doubt as to whom will win. Think Star Wars, but the Jedi and Sith would be angels and demons.

i've never understood dualism in that particular light, the light of doubt over the victor. i've always understand the black and white of yin and yang to both be equally necessary and the idea of victory of one over the other to be out of the question.

without the power of satan and the threat of hell there would be no need for a savior, would that perspective be a little more in line with what I'm talking about? without one (satan) there would be no need for the other (christ) therefore the opposing forces are equally necessary.

 

[Justin (Wiccan)]

i've never understood dualism in that particular light, the light of doubt over the victor.

Well, "doubt over the victor" in Zoroastrian mythology isn't in doubt, but for some (like the Norse), the "bad guys" win Ragnarok, and for some (like the Greeks vs the Titans), there's some doubt if that "final battle" will ever come. That may not specifically be "doubt over the victor" exactly, but it's an indication that the good guys don't universally win.

i've always understand the black and white of yin and yang to both be equally necessary and the idea of victory of one over the other to be out of the question.

Yeah ... that's a different critter like I said.

Maybe it helps to add some terminology for clarification: the religions where a "good guy" fights against an equivalently powered "bad guy" could be called "oppositional dualism." Religions like Taoism (or even like my own Wicca) where there are two opposite but complementary forces could be called "Complementary dualism," because both sides of the coin are needed for either to work. And religions like Christianity (Judaism and Islam to a lesser extent) could be called "Unequal Dualism," because the bad guy is definitely much weaker, and his fate is pretty much sealed.

A good fictional example of "Oppositional Dualism" would be the Valar in the Simarilion: the "good guys" (the Valar) fought against the "bad guy" (Morgoth), but Morgoth was actually himself a Valar--indeed, he was stronger than any of the others, even Manwe. Since Illuvatar wasn't going to get directly involved in the Battle, it was up to the Valar ... and there was considerable doubt for quite some time over who would win.

without the power of satan and the threat of hell there would be no need for a savior, would that perspective be a little more in line with what I'm talking about? without one (satan) there would be no need for the other (christ) therefore the opposing forces are equally necessary.

No, because even at that, it's not the power of Satan that necessitates "salvation," but the consequences of our own sins. Satan's just along for the ride as a tempter--yeah, he's powerful, but according to the literature even a single Christian can make him flee.

No, I think the closest it gets to what you're talking about is Zoroastrianism, or the Christian heresy of Manicheism. When Satan was adopted by Judaism (and thence by Christianity) from Zoroastrianism, he really got weakened, and is no longer even remotely equivalent to God.

 

[allsmiles]

Well, "doubt over the victor" in Zoroastrian mythology isn't in doubt, but for some (like the Norse), the "bad guys" win Ragnarok, and for some (like the Greeks vs the Titans), there's some doubt if that "final battle" will ever come. That may not specifically be "doubt over the victor" exactly, but it's an indication that the good guys don't universally win.



Yeah ... that's a different critter like I said.

Maybe it helps to add some terminology for clarification: the religions where a "good guy" fights against an equivalently powered "bad guy" could be called "oppositional dualism." Religions like Taoism (or even like my own Wicca) where there are two opposite but complementary forces could be called "Complementary dualism," because both sides of the coin are needed for either to work. And religions like Christianity (Judaism and Islam to a lesser extent) could be called "Unequal Dualism," because the bad guy is definitely much weaker, and his fate is pretty much sealed.

A good fictional example of "Oppositional Dualism" would be the Valar in the Simarilion: the "good guys" (the Valar) fought against the "bad guy" (Morgoth), but Morgoth was actually himself a Valar--indeed, he was stronger than any of the others, even Manwe. Since Illuvatar wasn't going to get directly involved in the Battle, it was up to the Valar ... and there was considerable doubt for quite some time over who would win.



No, because even at that, it's not the power of Satan that necessitates "salvation," but the consequences of our own sins. Satan's just along for the ride as a tempter--yeah, he's powerful, but according to the literature even a single Christian can make him flee.

No, I think the closest it gets to what you're talking about is Zoroastrianism, or the Christian heresy of Manicheism. When Satan was adopted by Judaism (and thence by Christianity) from Zoroastrianism, he really got weakened, and is no longer even remotely equivalent to God.

thanks for the lesson, i hope other people read this.

as a christian, how and when were you made aware of the tranference of satan from zoroastrianism to judaism and consequently to christianity, and how do you think a christian would be able to explain the apparent and historical progression?

 

[Justin (Wiccan)]

as a christian, how and when were you made aware of the tranference of satan from zoroastrianism to judaism and consequently to christianity, and how do you think a christian would be able to explain the apparent and historical progression?

I learned about that after I left Christianity--the closest equivalent is that I had heard of Gilgamesh before I left. But ... well, it's not very complementary to me, but I simply took the word of my pastor that the flood story in Gilgamesh was copied from Noah, even though Gilgamesh was older than Moses could have possibly been and Gilgamesh was written first.

Edited to add: at that time, I also still believed the "traditional" author attributions for the OT.

 

[allsmiles]

cool stuff justin, thank you.

Balder, as for the human sacrifice to appease a deity/deities, how about the story of Prometheus?

 

[Balder]

You find an interesting variation on complementary dualism in Balinese Hinduism. The priests where cloth printed with white, black, and gray check marks, indicating the dualism of good and evil (white and black) and the "balancing" (gray) that takes place in the human realm. One of the regular temple rituals is the dance of the Barong, a mythical creature which battles and defeats evil. In Balinese Hindu tradition, the battle of good and evil is eternal, but it is not an equal balance of powers: good will always prevail. Evil is a distortion of the good, and derives from the good, thus it cannot be considered equal. In our realm, it is the human duty to find a balance between them, striving for the good and learning to deal with and "corral" evil on a personal and social level, through ritualization and transmutation of "evil" impulses.

 

[monochrome]

Derailing only slightly, I'd like to draw comparison to a completly differant set of myths: the Celtic.

You have at the top the Dagda (the "Good God", Simaldinac, Ruahd Rofessa). He had many children, including Llewellyn, (Or Nudd, or Nuada, depending on which itereation of the faith you're reading (Welsh, Irish, or Scottish)) who fell from grace when his hand was severed, and he was no longer the pure and unblemished son. He of course got a new hand made from him some time later, and was able to reclaim his throne from Bress (beautiful), the prince of the fomori (twisted evil giants).

One could easily see how the catholics capitalised on this when the Dagda became Jehova and Llew became Christ and Bress became Satan. Yay for destoying tradition and myth!

There are a thousand paralells between christianity and the celtic traditions, which is interesting since Christianity didn't reach the island until their gods had all ready entered their slumber in the earth, leaving men's fate in their own hands.
- m -

 

[docrob57]

I was going to comment, but I will just let you guys have your fun.

 

[Justin (Wiccan)]

There are a thousand paralells between christianity and the celtic traditions, which is interesting since Christianity didn't reach the island until their gods had all ready entered their slumber in the earth, leaving men's fate in their own hands.
- m -

Well, one probable reason for the parallels is that the myths weren't written down until a few centuries after the Christianization of Ireland. Those myths may have already been contaminated by Christian additions.

 

[Balder]

I was going to comment, but I will just let you guys have your fun.

Ah, join in, Doc! You'd be welcome.

We particularly need some dissenters to get this thing rolling!

 

[allsmiles]

There are a thousand paralells between christianity and the celtic traditions, which is interesting since Christianity didn't reach the island until their gods had all ready entered their slumber in the earth, leaving men's fate in their own hands.
- m -

I forget where, I'll have to look into it over the weekend, but i read somewhere of a story of jesus traveling to britain and establishing a church personally. of course this story would hinge upon his survival of the crucifixion.