The Terri Case - this is ridiculous

[The Edge]

An woman who has not commited a capital crime is being put to death by a means that would not be tolerated if one chose to apply them to a dog. She is being executed barbarically by deliberate starvation.

I agree. It should not have come this far. This should have been settled 17 years ago. but now the only way out either way has a bad outcome...either they kill her slowly or prolong her meaningless life. this situation exists because of mistakes and heresay. it is unfortunate.

 

[Crow]

I agree. It should not have come this far. This should have been settled 17 years ago. but now the only way out either way has a bad outcome...either they kill her slowly or prolong her meaningless life. this situation exists because of mistakes and heresay. it is unfortunate.

So what, to you, should be the default scenario? Preserve a woman's life, which may well and does indeed appear to be meaningful to her? Or starve her to death just in case she would want to die?

 

[Sozo]

...either they kill her slowly or prolong her meaningless life.

The hole you are digging yourself, is just about deep enough to bury an eternity of stupidity! :dunce: :grave:

 

[aikido7]

Advance directives. living wills, etc, are an example of laws that were intended for good being used for a wicked purpose.

These insturments were intended to spare people who were close to death and unable to be healed the opportunity to die without the pain and indignity of a battery of futile treatments to prolong the process of death. To allow a man or woman with a terminal disease to not be subjected to pointless, expensive, extrodinary, and often agonizing procedures that would not restore or maintain their health. It was a means of allowing people to die with some semblance of dignity; a way of promoting comfort over an attempt to prevent what is ultimately the fate of all of us and a natural end to life--death.

Living wills were not intended as a means to kill those members of society who were handicapped and needed assistance with basic human needs--food and water. They were not intended as instruments for to be wielded to effect the suicide or murder of "defective" humans.

I was raised to be proud of my country--a serviceman's kid who respected and loved my country. I was raised to appreciate the freedom, opportunity, and ideals of my country, even when those goals could not be acheived perfectly by imperfect human beings.

Today, I am ashamed of the direction my country is headed in. A woman's life is being taken by good laws perverted to exploit the weakest and most defenseless of human beings--a helpless woman who is considered to be unworthy of her own life. An woman who has not commited a capital crime is being put to death by a means that would not be tolerated if one chose to apply them to a dog. She is being executed barbarically by deliberate starvation.

Some say the law has no right to intervene. Since when is killing another human being not a concern of the law? Since when is a person's decision to kill another member of their family sacred--a personal matter that does not bring detriment to society as a whole?

Since 1973, when Rowe vs. Wade opened a Pandora's box that made it acceptable to cull our ranks of those who are unwanted and inconvenient. It became acceptable to assign an arbitrary value to the life of another human being, and end that life based not upon just cause but upon "choice."

Who will be the next group of people to be relegated to the delete bin? The feeble-minded? The crippled? A troublesome ethnic group?

Maybe it looks familiar. It should.

Very well expressed....!

 

[Zakath]

I need to write a living will, so this horrible madness doesn't happen to me should i have an accident like that.

The wife and I already have...

 

[Poly]

I been watching Fox News tonight.... just to get a little insight. Fascinating case actually....all the legal stuff, though I don't understand most of it, is pretty interesting.

I retract the harsh statements I made, but not because of any flames I received from you all but because this is such an unusual case with all kinds of complicated legal rigamarole associated with it.

I am no medical or legal expert. I can provide no educated opinion. All I think is this poor woman and this family has been through enough. Somehow we need to get some closure, but I'm not sure any more the right way to do that. Starving her to death is cruel. I'm hearing questionable things about Michael and his character. I no longer know the right thing to do; either way, the outcome will be sad.

But I'm not a communist, a nazi, or a heartless person. I sympathize with those on both sides of this case, but I don't think this needs to be in the media so much. It's all that's on now, and there's more important things happening in the world.

T.E.

I think the thing that disappoints me the most is that you assumed something to be true when it was nothing more than what you had been told. This is such a dangerous thing to do. We have no hard concrete proof in all of this. But we do have some big time evidence that Michael does not care for Terri and that he's never had her best interest in mind. Did you bother to read any of this before you made up your mind before that Terri should die?

 

[Servo]

I like what Columbine dad Brian Rohrbough said, "There’s no such thing as assisted suicide, its murder when you kill an innocent person."

 

[The Edge]

I think the thing that disappoints me the most is that you assumed something to be true when it was nothing more than what you had been told. This is such a dangerous thing to do. We have no hard concrete proof in all of this. But we do have some big time evidence that Michael does not care for Terri and that he's never had her best interest in mind. Did you bother to read any of this before you made up your mind before that Terri should die?

Poly, I corrected my mistake. I admited to assuming and repented. Be disappointed no more.

 

[wholearmor]

I need to write a living will, so this horrible madness doesn't happen to me should i have an accident like that.

What if you change your mind and can't tell anyone?

 

[Zakath]

What if you change your mind and can't tell anyone?

It's too late, then...

It's kind of like agreeing to gall bladder surgery. If you wait too long to change your mind you'll wake up with a changed mind and a missing gall bladder.

Free will does not guarrantee unlimited ability to change one's mind and affect a different outcome in an event.

 

[wholearmor]

It's too late, then...

It's kind of like agreeing to gall bladder surgery. If you wait too long to change your mind you'll wake up with a changed mind and a missing gall bladder.

Free will does not guarrantee unlimited ability to change one's mind and affect a different outcome in an event.

Exactly. That's one reason why the practice of a living will is ridiculous. You cannot know what you would want until you find yourself experiencing the situation. It reminds me somewhat of a scene from the movie, Young Frankenstein, where Gene Wilder's character told his assistants not to let him out of the room with the monster for any reason. Of course, shortly after entering the room and being locked in, he changed his mind and begged and pleaded to be let out.

 

[Zakath]

Exactly. That's why the practice of a living will is ridiculous. You cannot know what you would want until you find yourself experiencing the situation. It reminds me somewhat of a scene from the movie, Young Frankenstein, where Gene Wilder's character told his assistants not to let him out of the room with the monster for any reason. Of course, shortly after entering the room and being locked in, he changed his mind and begged and pleaded to be let out.

Having worked for a couple of years in a hospital emergency room and frequently visiting the poor souls in the ICU and CCU, I would say that the practice of a living will is a wise decision if you do not want to leave important decisions about your care to squabbling family members or strangers like hospital administration or insurance providers.

It's not perfect, no. But it's better than the potential of being left to the wolves... :think:

 

[wholearmor]

Having worked for a couple of years in a hospital emergency room and frequently visiting the poor souls in the ICU and CCU, I would say that the practice of a living will is a wise decision if you do not want to leave important decisions about your care to squabbling family members or strangers like hospital administration or insurance providers.

It's not perfect, no. But it's better than the potential of being left to the wolves... :think:

So considering Terri Schiavo specifically, if she had left a living will stating she didn't want to be kept alive with a feeding tube, would you consider it a tragedy for her if she didn't feel that way in the state she finds herself in?

 

[The Edge]

What if I change my mind and can't tell anyone? I'll have to place my trust in God that He will take care of me or cause the family members to make the decision they know I'd want. But while I am able, I better get a living will done. As Zakath said, it's not perfect but it's better than the squabbling family members doing what is happening to Terri.

Terri's case is just so strange and full of so much rumor and speculation, it has caused me to say things I was not sure about. A very touchy issue and people seem to be very passionate about it. I dismiss the matter; it does not affect me. It's not right to kill her, and it's not right to force her to live the way she is. I wash my hands of the case. Hope it turns out for the best, and soon. If anything, if this case affected me somehow, it brought to my attention the importance of a living will. I will be writing one so this does not happen to me.

 

[wholearmor]

What if I change my mind and can't tell anyone? I'll have to place my trust in God that He will take care of me or cause the family members to make the decision they know I'd want. But while I am able, I better get a living will done. As Zakath said, it's not perfect but it's better than the squabbling family members doing what is happening to Terri.

Terri's case is just so strange and full of so much rumor and speculation, it has caused me to say things I was not sure about. A very touchy issue and people seem to be very passionate about it. I dismiss the matter; it does not affect me. It's not right to kill her, and it's not right to force her to live the way she is. I wash my hands of the case. Hope it turns out for the best, and soon. If anything, if this case affected me somehow, it brought to my attention the importance of a living will. I will be writing one so this does not happen to me.

What if she wants to live the way she is? Don't you consider a living will premeditated suicide?

 

[Zakath]

What if she wants to live the way she is?

Her window for making such decisions closed when she lost brain function. From what I understand, she is in her current condition mostly as a result of her lifestyle for a number of years prior to her heart attack. She is, sadly perhaps, having to accept the results of her previous poor choices over a number of years...

Like a mountain climber falling from the rock face to his doom after his rope breaks, it's too late to decide then that he didn't really want to go mountain climbing that day...

 

[wholearmor]

Her window for making such decisions closed when she lost brain function.

Like a mountain climber falling from the rock face to his doom after his rope breaks, it's too late to decide then that he didn't really want to go mountain climbing that day...

That's a terrible analogy. Mountain climbers know full well the risks of mountain climbing. Terri Schiavo never had any idea what the risks would be of completing a living will. Also, Terri has not lost all brain function, correct?

 

[Zakath]

That's a terrible analogy.

Not really, no.

Mountain climbers know full well the risks of mountain climbing.

In general, that's true. Though a specific climb may be much riskier than a climber realizes until they're too far committed to turn back.

Terri Schiavo never had any idea what the risks would be of completing a living will.

So considering Terri Schiavo specifically, if she had left a living will stating she didn't want to be kept alive with a feeding tube, would you consider it a tragedy for her if she didn't feel that way in the state she finds herself in?

I combined your two posts here. I missed this last paragraph in my previous example. I think her condition and position are tragic, yes. But I still think she is where she is, at least partially, as a result of her own choices and actions.

It's not like she was a vicitim of an automobile accident over which she had no control...

Also, Terri has not lost all brain function, correct?

So far as I understand, that is correct. She had the ability to randomly vocalize (make sounds, but not words) and her eyes would respond to light. She does not, according to physician reports I've read, respond to direct stimulus in Her lower brain stem functions (breathing, heartbeat, some autonomic nervious functions) also appeared to be intact.

 

[The Edge]

Don't you consider a living will premeditated suicide?

No I do not. I consider a living will to be a preparatory document outlining what you want done if you should lose the ability to communicate medical decisions after a catestrophic medical event in your life. Writing a living will should not be done lightly, but should reflect a lot of thought and prayer beforehand.

 

[wholearmor]

Zakath:
In general, that's true. Though a specific climb may be much riskier than a climber realizes until they're too far committed to turn back.

WA:
In that case, you described the person incorrectly. That person would be a fool, not a mountain climber in the true sense of the words, which would follow that a person completing a living will would be a fool not knowing what they may be getting themselves into.