ARCHIVE: Free From Sin - 1 John

Lighthouse

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godrulz said:
Sin is volitional, not a nebulous 'flesh' nature (metaphor for sin as we yield to bodily appetites above a Spirit-controlled life). The nature of the incarnation and Christ's sinlessness is a different issue and doctrine (kenosis) than sanctification in believer's who are tempted and may or may not yield to it (Christ was tempted, yet without sin, by choice, not just by nature).

Piecing together two totally different issues and calling me a hypocrite for not being that exegetically sloppy is not impressive. :doh:

Christ also had one will despite His two natures. You are ascribing two wills to a person and giving impersonal flesh a separate will that removes our God-given free will and responsibility. Are you sure you are not a Watchman Nee groupie?
You're completely denying the very Biblical truth that Christians have two natures, and the reason they have this is because Christ's nature is imputed to them, and it is that nature that is Christian, and not the other nature [flesh]. All the while you are claiming that Christ had a flesh nature and a spiritual nature. You are a hypocrite, for saying it is impossible for Christians to have the same, and are thereby denying that Christ's life is given to us when we have faith in Him.
 

godrulz

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Lighthouse said:
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You're completely denying the very Biblical truth that Christians have two natures, and the reason they have this is because Christ's nature is imputed to them, and it is that nature that is Christian, and not the other nature [flesh]. All the while you are claiming that Christ had a flesh nature and a spiritual nature. You are a hypocrite, for saying it is impossible for Christians to have the same, and are thereby denying that Christ's life is given to us when we have faith in Him.


Whoa...slow down...don't get your shirt in a knot...

A person has one will. Are you saying we have two wills?

We have one human spirit, as did Jesus. We have one body. Flesh is a metaphor for sin, not an indwelling principle that makes us sin against our wills ('original sin' is Augustinian, not biblical). In any given choice, we can yield to the Spirit/spirit or to the flesh (i.e. gratify sensual desires over obedience to God). If you commit fornication, you take your one will and use it to walk to someone's house to have intercourse, contrary to God's law. This is volitional and sinful, not flesh doing it against your will or Christ in you. You can euphemize it away and deny responsibility, but it is sin, and it is you who did it, even though you are a believer indwelt by Christ. This is why Paul reminded us that we are the temple of the Holy Spirit and should not use our bodies to go to temple prostitutes like some of them were.

You are taking a metaphor and making a big doctrine out of it. This is the same mistake as Catholics who take the metaphor of eating/drinking blood/body to come up with Mass/transubstantitation. You confuse moral issues with metaphysical issues.

I am not building a persuasive case, apparently, but I would not be quick to conclude I am a hypocrite or denying Christ's or a Christian's experience.

Unbelievers form a fleshly nature by always given in to bodily desires (lust is legitimate appetites out of control: sexual, gluttony, greed, etc.). Believers are not immune from the pull of bodily appetites (hence all the exhortations to not yield to this any longer, but to walk in the Spirit, walk in light, obey, do and do not). If the flesh is dead, we should never have a pull or temptation once we are converted. If Christ is the only factor, we should all be equally mature and free from struggles. Unbelievers are sinners because they sin. They do not sin because they are sinners. Believers do not sin because the flesh nature in them sins. They sin as an act of the will, heeding the flesh/body over the Holy Spirit in us. Obedience and disobedience are not divorced from spirit vs flesh issues. Believers who do not sin, yield to the Spirit and His law, not to selfish desires. The will, not nebulous natures, is the seat of choice. This is God-given and part of being in the image of God. It is why we are responsible as humans for our choices.

Adultery, murder, stealing, hating parents, worshipping idols, coveting, lying, etc. are all volitional. Making them something the so-called flesh, but not us, does makes no sense biblically nor practically.

Just because 'born again' is a metaphor for salvation (carries spiritual truth) does not give us right to make a big doctrine based on physical birth out of it.

Your views on sanctification are one of several views. I would not be dogmatic, since they are problematic if taken to their logical conclusion.
 

Fensanity

New member
I agree with Rulz here. If you give into your sinful flesh than you are responsible. It is not the nature of Christ in you that sins, but your nature of the flesh ---- But YOU are still responsible. YOU still did it.

Yes I read this whole thread --- well skipped and skimmed a few tangents --- it took me forever.

" 23for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God." 1 peter 1
Important to know that being born of God is talked as a seed. Something that is small and has to grow into something great (and only God can make it grow - 1Cor).

Or as Matthew Henry put so well:
"This the apostle teaches by preferring the incorruptible to the corruptible seed. By the one we become the children of men, by the other the sons and daughters of the Most High. The word of God being compared to seed teaches us that though it is little in appearance, yet it is wonderful in operation, though it lies hid awhile, yet it grows up and produces excellent fruit at last."
To say Christians don't sin is to make it impossible to be a Christian. At some point Christians won't sin. But Christ is continually making us into that creature that perfectly reflects God.

I think in reality this is true. Or for at least me it is, because I have sinned while I am a Christian. Who here by definition hasn't?

Sozo: I don't know what you think - you deleted your post... /shrug
e4e: You have ignored straight forward simple questions highlighted in blue and just thrown insults around. At best come down to our level and answer some of those questions will ya?
LH: I respect you, I think you are starting to explain your view more and more, but ultimately I think its built on a little confusion and semantics. But we will see. What are those 3 definitions of sin that you where talking about? or did you answer that already - can you link me to the thread or page number?
 

noneoftheabove

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I don't know what I John says off the top of my head, to which I can hear my teacher of old say "Shame on you," but I am so filthy before the Lord's presence. It burns. To Him I say siege on!
 

Jacob

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Lighthouse said:
When did I mention two laws? And your very own reference states that Christ fulfilled the law for us, because we couldn't.
yes, matthew 5 reference. then there is 1 john. romans. chapter 8 of romans... etc.... all should be in context. I'm not trying to argue or debate a point with you. I'm trying to get you to see that in romans 8 it is common to come to the wrong conclusion about the requirement of the Law because there are different english appearances of the word law. I would hardly say that the law of the spirit and the law of sin and of death are both the Law fulfilled in us that Christ did for us. It has to be understood. So, again... I'll go learn myself. Just trying to help. Many say that the Law has been fulfilled so that we don't have to. This is wrongheaded.

As for you saying that there are two laws. I'm just going off of this quote for that:

Lighthouse said:
That verse is saying that Christ died so that the law might be fulfilled in us. It is also saying that we could not fulfill it ourselves.
I thought you were referring to Romans 8 here. If you trace back through our discussion, you will see that when you asked me why i was asking stupid questions that I had reason to assume that we were still on Romans 8.

Which verse do you have that says that Christ fulfilled the Law? There are a couple. Wondering which one you are looking at.

Shalom,

Jacob
 

Sozo

New member
Knight said:
Sozo's message would be... "Come to the Lord to have your past sins paid for and change the name of your future sins to anything but "sin" ". :hammer:

Where is the pay-off? What is the point? It would only confuse the lost.
The "point" is, if a Christian "sins", then there must be a sacrifice for that sin. The "confusion" brings those who have come to Christ into a belief that they must make some kind of sacrifice for their sin (godrulz is a perfect example of this).

(see the op) :p
 

godrulz

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Sozo said:
The "point" is, if a Christian "sins", then there must be a sacrifice for that sin. The "confusion" brings those who have come to Christ into a belief that they must make some kind of sacrifice for their sin (godrulz is a perfect example of this).

(see the op) :p


"It is FINISHED". We cannot make a sacrifice for our own sins. Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. We cannot do anything to take away our sins. Perhaps you are confusing grounds and conditions. Not everyone is saved (universalism), because not everyone believes or receives or appropriates His finished work. If a Christian sins, the same sacrifice that dealt with our past sins is effective for sins subsequent to conversion. He does not die again. His sacrifice is effective for pre and post conversion sins (I Jn. 1:9; 2:1, 2; Hebrews).
 

godrulz

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Fensanity said:
I agree with Rulz here. If you give into your sinful flesh than you are responsible. It is not the nature of Christ in you that sins, but your nature of the flesh ---- But YOU are still responsible. YOU still did it.

?

You might not agree with everything I said. The body or flesh is not evil. It is the temple of the Spirit. It is what we do with our body that determines vice or virtue (Romans 6 yield members to flesh or spirit). We can make a covenant with our eyes, like Job, to not look lustfully at a woman. We can use our genitals and hands to adulterate and murder, like David did. We can walk in the Spirit like Paul and not gratify the desires of the flesh (bodily appetites, not a nebulous nature). We can walk in the light as He is in the light like John did. We can be holy as He is holy, including obedient choices, like Peter did (I Peter 1:13-16). The flesh is not causative. It is a propensity to sin, but the will (you) sin. Personifying flesh is not necessary if you understand the metaphor Paul uses (figure of speech vs Augustinian/Bullinger doctrine).

LH: Where is this so-called flesh nature with another will? Is it in the blood, heart, kidneys, bones, brain...where is it or what is it? How does it get genetically transmitted from Adam? Is stealing and fornicating volitional or is it a causative nature back of the will that makes it happen? Is it a sin or not, regardless of what religion a human embraces?

http://www.gospeltruth.net/menbornsinners/mbsindex.htm

An understanding of some of these issues will allow us to critically think through a popular belief (sinful nature vs Christ in us) that is only partially true. Christ is in us, but there is not an inherited Adamic nature that makes us do things (we are sinners because we sin; we do not sin because we inherited a flesh nature). We are spirit, soul (will, intellect, emotions), body. We are not spirit, flesh nature, Christ nature, two wills, intellect, bad body, good body. Watchman Nee and others popularized this spirit/flesh concept, rooted in 'original sin' Augustinian ideas, but it overstates the case and goes beyond a more straightforward understanding of Scripture.
 

godrulz

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sentientsynth said:
Wow, Godrulz! You're a walking encyclopedia!

:bow:

Sarcasm? I would just be slow to believe every teaching from Bullinger (though I am sure much of it is helpful and good).

More trivia: Wierwille, founder of THE WAY cult, plagiarized teachings from Bullinger :noid:

http://withchrist.org/bullinger.htm

Who was the TOLer who recommended Miles Stanford "Green Letters"? (Clete? Sozo?) It is interesting that he does not have much good to say about Enyart or Bullinger. I think we should be aware of things that influence our thinking and not assume everything we believe is infallible (I am guilty as charged since I find Finney systematically coherent).
 
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Nathon Detroit

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Sozo said:
The "point" is, if a Christian "sins", then there must be a sacrifice for that sin.
No, because a Christians sin has already been paid for.

The "confusion" brings those who have come to Christ into a belief that they must make some kind of sacrifice for their sin (godrulz is a perfect example of this).

(see the op) :p
Actually, because of your wacky notion that Christians can't sin you have given godrulz tons of ammo that he wouldn't normally have if you had rightfully argued that Christians might sin but that sin is already paid for.

Furthermore, grabbing your strongest proof text from a book written to a different dispensation only furthers godrulz argument against your unfounded assertion.

You are only helping the legalists look good.
 

Nathon Detroit

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Sozo said:
Free from sin​


Key verses

"Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."
John 8:34

"Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness."
Romans 6:16-18


1 John 1:1

"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life"

John confirms that Jesus was "from the beginning" and they were witnesses to his appearing. They heard Him, they saw Him, and they touched Him. He was very real, and not an illusion.

Jesus came in the flesh

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; and this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world."
1 John 4:1-3​

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
2 John 1:7​

And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:7​


"See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."
Luke 24:39​

For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh
Romans 8:3​

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
1 Timothy 3:16​

Since then the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil; and might deliver those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
Hebrews 2:14-17​

For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
1 Peter 3:18​

Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin
1 Peter 4:1​

1 John 1:2

"For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and show unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us"

The eternal life of God the Father was evident and proved to John through Christ, and John further proclaims this to those whom he is writing that they (those with John) were witnesses to this fact.

Jesus gives Life

In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
John 1:4​

For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
John 5:26​

"You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life."
John 5:39​

"For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world."
John 6:33​

"I am the bread of life."
John 6:48​

"The thief comes only to steal, and kill, and destroy; I came that they might have life, and might have it abundantly."
John 10:10​

And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
1 John 5:11-12​

1 John 1:3

"That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ."

Again, John reiterates the importance that they were indeed witnesses and that he now is proclaiming this life to them that they may have fellowship with John, for John's fellowship is "indeed" with the Father and His Son Jesus.


In fellowship with Jesus

I thank my God always concerning you, for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus, that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge, even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you, so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who shall also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
1 Corinthians 1:4-9​

If therefore there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.
Philippians 2:1-2​

1 John 1:4

" And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full."

Was John writing to ask for their approval of fellowship? Was he writing to present them the truth of Christ, that they also could have fellowship with John? Their "joy" would be full (complete) if they had indeed accepted the message of life eternal that God "has promised to those who love Him"

Don't miss this...

John is writing this letter to this church to confirm with them that they have come to know Christ, because there were many false teachers who had crept into the church. Some, who had proclaimed that Jesus had not come in the flesh. (1 John 4:2) John needs to make sure that this church he is writing to, knows that John is someone who actually walked with, spoke with, and touched Jesus. He is a legitimate authority, who has fellowship with the Father through Jesus Christ. John needs to establish that if they (those who are reading his letter) are going to claim to have fellowship with Jesus and with each other, then John needs to make sure that they understand some of the fundamentals of the faith. Obviously, there had to have been some concern on John's part about some of the teaching that had crept in, or he would not have brought up the things that he is now proclaiming.


1 John 1:5

" This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Here John affirms a message that He had indeed heard from Jesus himself, that is, that "God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all". There are many passages that talk about "light" & "darkness" in the NT, and every reference of "light" deals with either the truth of God, or being saved, that is, possessing the very life of God, the very thing that John is proclaiming.

For men to "let their light shine", they must possess that light, whether it be the truth, or God's life. Jesus clearly explains that to have the life is to have the light, and they shall not walk in darkness. There is no question that if you are "in the light", you are saved! If you are "in darkness", you are lost and without the life of God.


Darkness and Light

In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
John 1:4-5​

And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil.
John 3:19​

Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life."
John 8:12​

But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Acts 26:16-18​

Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?
2 Corinthians 6:14​

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them; for you were formerly darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of light
Ephesians 5:6-8​

But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness
1 Thessolonians 4:4-5​

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light
1 Peter 2:9​

1 John 1:6

" If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth "

This is not difficult to understand. If you are not saved (in darkness), then you are not in fellowship with God, and if you say you are, well then you're lying.

1 John 1:7

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin."

Here is the crux of John's message, and it is clear that to be in fellowship with God that you are "in the light" as He is "in the light" and the result has been that you are cleansed of all sin. There is no way that you can be "in sin" and "in Christ" at the same time. There is no way that you can be "in darkness" and "in the light" at the same time. As John further explains later... "And you know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin." . Those who teach that you can move in & out of fellowship, would also have to believe that you move in & out of light, in & out of life, or in & out of Christ! That is a doctrine of demons, and one that paralyzes belivers into a fear of having any hope that God loves them and that He sustains or keeps them.

The blood of Jesus

"But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ."
Ephesians 2:13​

"… for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins."
Matthew 26:28​

" Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him"
Romans 5:9​

"In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace"
Ephesians 1:7​

"…knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ."
1 Peter 1:18​

"But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"
Hebrews 9:11-14​

"And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness."
Hebrews 9:22​

"…To Him who loves us, and released us from our sins by His blood"
Revelation 1:5​

1 John 1:8

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

This verse has to do with those who claim to have never sinned, or believed that they did not have a sin nature. If that is what they are believing and/or teaching, then they are deceived, they are not "in the light", they are not "in fellowship", and they are not "in Christ"! John even goes so far as to include himself, that if he were making those claims, it would also apply to him. Verse 7 states that Jesus has cleansed us from all sin! Verse 8 is therefore there to affirm that we have in fact, had sin, a sin nature, and that it is Christ that took it away! Either we have been cleansed, or we haven't. You cannot have it both ways.

This is where it takes a critical eye to see why so many are deceived into misusing the previous two verses. It is absolutely ludicrious to tell someone that they have been cleansed of something, and then to tell them they are wrong if they say they no longer have it. That is exactly what false teachers do when they refuse to acknowledge that verse eight is simply reiterating that they must understand that they did in fact have sin.
When John makes the statement that it is Jesus that cleanses them from all sin, he needs to make sure that they know that they did indeed have the sin that needed to be cleansed.

Sin

"…for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"
Romans 3:23​

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned"
Romans 5:12​

"…for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written, "There is none righteous, not even one; There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God; All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one."
Romans 3:9-12​

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners…"
Romans 5:19​

"… whatever is not from faith is sin"
Romans 14:23​

" Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do, and does not do it, to him it is sin."
James 4:17​

"Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law (lawlessness).
1 John 3:4​

"All unrighteousness is sin…"
1 John 5:17​

"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me"
John 16:8-9​

"Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. "
John 8:34​

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect"
Matthew 5:48


The Greek dictionary defines sin (Hamartia) as: a missing of the mark

Therefore, anything short of absolute perfection is sin!

It still amazes me that Christians actually think that they have the ability to compare themselves to God's standard of perfection, and then to make judgments as to whether or not they are falling short! In doing so, they not only abolish the purpose of the Law, but they completely destroy the intent of the grace of God!


1 John 1:9

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

"All unrighteousness is sin…"
1 John 5:17​

Based on what we have already discussed, this should put the false perceptions of this verse to rest. This verse just reaffirms verse 7. To be justified by faith we must admit that we do indeed have sin (a sin nature), and we have in fact sinned. Therefore, John proclaims that it is indeed Jesus who is faithful and righteous to forgive our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If Jesus has cleansed you, you can not make yourself uncleansed! You were unrighteous because you were "in Adam", "in darkness", & "in the flesh". You had no ability to make yourself righteous apart from the cross. But, having now come to Christ, you are "in Christ", "in the light", "in fellowship", & "in the Spirit"! God has placed you there, and it had nothing to do with your works. You have been made righteous by the blood of Christ! How then do you suppose after having been made righteous, that you could make yourself unrighteous? You could never make yourself unrighteous or righteous to begin with. The fact is you can only be cleansed of sin once! You can only be cleansed of unrighteousness once! "For without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness" Jesus is not going to be crucified every time you "think" you need forgiveness.

Confession

"So it shall be when he becomes guilty in one of these, that he shall confess that in which he has sinned. 'He shall also bring his guilt offering to the LORD for his sin which he has committed, a female from the flock, a lamb or a goat as a sin offering. So the priest shall make atonement on his behalf for his sin."
Leviticus 5:5-6​

"And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness"
Leviticus 16:21​

Under the Old Covenant, there had to be confession made with the sacrifice. The sacrifice of Jesus is a better sacrifice (Hebrews 9:26; 10:12). There is no more sacrifice for sin!

Faithful & Just

Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
Hebrews 2:17​

"Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful"
Hebrews 10:23​

"Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession. He was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was in all His house."
Hebrews 3:1-2​

"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."

"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;"

"He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies"
Romans 8:32-33​

"Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."
Romans 5:9​

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."
Romans 8:29-30​


"…nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 2:16​



Righteousness is a gift that we receive when we obey (believe in) the gospel!

Righteousness of God

"For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ."
Romans 5:17​

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live by faith."
Romans 1:16-17​

"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness"
Romans 4:5​

"Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness."
Romans 6:16-18​

"…for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
Romans 10:10​

"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
2 Corinthians 5:21​

"I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish in order that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith"
Philippians 3:8-9​

"…and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed."
1 Peter 2:24​

"If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him."
1 John 2:29​

"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."
1 John 3:7​

1 John 1:10

"If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

Again, John affirms that those who claim that they never sinned are calling God a liar, and Jesus is not in them!

Christians and sin

"We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him and the evil one does not touch him"
1 John 5:18​

"For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucifiedwith Him, that our body of sin might be done away with (destroyed), that we should no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin".
Romans 6:5-7​

"For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God."
Colossians 3:3​
"Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sins hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
1 John 3:6-9​

1. He who has died is free from sin.

2. Christians have died and their life is hidden in Christ.

3. No one who is in Christ sins.

4. No one who is born of God sins.

5. The one who commits sin is of the devil and a slave of sin.


Are you a Christian or are you of the devil?


Matthew 7:23

"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'

It says… He never knew them!

They never were Christians! Christians cannot work iniquity or practice lawlessness!!

1 John 2:1-2

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

John confirms again, that Jesus is the one who made propitiation for the whole world. If they are still in sin, they need Jesus, and if you are still in sin, so do you!
Just in case Sozo decides to take his ball and run home again, I have quoted the opening post here for reference.
 

Sozo

New member
Knight said:
No, because a Christians sin has already been paid for.
Christians are dead to sin. How can they continue to sin?
Actually, because of your wacky notion that Christians can't sin you have given godrulz tons of ammo that he wouldn't normally have if you had rightfully argued that Christians might sin but that sin is already paid for.
What does a Christian use to define that they have in fact sinned? (godrulz is looking for an excuse to prove that he is still a sinner).
Furthermore, grabbing your strongest proof text from a book written to a different dispensation only furthers godrulz argument against your unfounded assertion.
There is plenty of "proof text" from Paul, and anyway, godrulz (and most cultists) reject the dispensations. Also, I frankly do not understand The Plot. It makes no sense whatsoever. There are a plethora of holes in it's presentation, and it does not flow well at all. How does Bob determine that John is writing to someone other than the Body of Christ?
Just in case Sozo decides to take his ball and run home again, I have quoted the opening post here for reference.
The "ball" was being defecated upon by an idiot. I don't have the energy to put up with ignorant scumbags like Apologist. It would be nice to limit these debates to semi-clear thinking individuals. I am back until he is.
 
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Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
godrulz said:
Whoa...slow down...don't get your shirt in a knot...

A person has one will. Are you saying we have two wills?
No, you moron. Pay attention, please. I am saying that we have our will, and we have access to Christ's will, because we are in Him. There is our will and Christ's will. Any sin committed is against Christ's will, and anyone who argues against that is not a Christian. What I am saying is that that which is in Christ walks according to the Spirit, in accordance with the will of Christ. And that which walks in accordance with the flesh, in accordance with human will [that which sins] is not in Christ, and therefore not Christian. The part of me that is my will is not the redeemed part of me. And only the redeemed part of me is Christian, and it does not sin.

We have one human spirit, as did Jesus. We have one body. Flesh is a metaphor for sin, not an indwelling principle that makes us sin against our wills ('original sin' is Augustinian, not biblical). In any given choice, we can yield to the Spirit/spirit or to the flesh (i.e. gratify sensual desires over obedience to God). If you commit fornication, you take your one will and use it to walk to someone's house to have intercourse, contrary to God's law. This is volitional and sinful, not flesh doing it against your will or Christ in you. You can euphemize it away and deny responsibility, but it is sin, and it is you who did it, even though you are a believer indwelt by Christ. This is why Paul reminded us that we are the temple of the Holy Spirit and should not use our bodies to go to temple prostitutes like some of them were.

You are taking a metaphor and making a big doctrine out of it. This is the same mistake as Catholics who take the metaphor of eating/drinking blood/body to come up with Mass/transubstantitation. You confuse moral issues with metaphysical issues.

I am not building a persuasive case, apparently, but I would not be quick to conclude I am a hypocrite or denying Christ's or a Christian's experience.

Unbelievers form a fleshly nature by always given in to bodily desires (lust is legitimate appetites out of control: sexual, gluttony, greed, etc.). Believers are not immune from the pull of bodily appetites (hence all the exhortations to not yield to this any longer, but to walk in the Spirit, walk in light, obey, do and do not). If the flesh is dead, we should never have a pull or temptation once we are converted. If Christ is the only factor, we should all be equally mature and free from struggles. Unbelievers are sinners because they sin. They do not sin because they are sinners. Believers do not sin because the flesh nature in them sins. They sin as an act of the will, heeding the flesh/body over the Holy Spirit in us. Obedience and disobedience are not divorced from spirit vs flesh issues. Believers who do not sin, yield to the Spirit and His law, not to selfish desires. The will, not nebulous natures, is the seat of choice. This is God-given and part of being in the image of God. It is why we are responsible as humans for our choices.

Adultery, murder, stealing, hating parents, worshipping idols, coveting, lying, etc. are all volitional. Making them something the so-called flesh, but not us, does makes no sense biblically nor practically.

Just because 'born again' is a metaphor for salvation (carries spiritual truth) does not give us right to make a big doctrine based on physical birth out of it.

Your views on sanctification are one of several views. I would not be dogmatic, since they are problematic if taken to their logical conclusion.
See above.
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
Fensanity said:
I agree with Rulz here. If you give into your sinful flesh than you are responsible. It is not the nature of Christ in you that sins, but your nature of the flesh
That is exactly what I am saying.

---- But YOU are still responsible. YOU still did it.
Who are you? The unrighteous old man, or the righteous new creation? Who do you identify as? Do you identify with your sin, or with Christ?

Yes I read this whole thread --- well skipped and skimmed a few tangents --- it took me forever.
:chuckle:

Important to know that being born of God is talked as a seed. Something that is small and has to grow into something great (and only God can make it grow - 1Cor).

Or as Matthew Henry put so well:
To say Christians don't sin is to make it impossible to be a Christian. At some point Christians won't sin. But Christ is continually making us into that creature that perfectly reflects God.

I think in reality this is true. Or for at least me it is, because I have sinned while I am a Christian. Who here by definition hasn't?

Sozo: I don't know what you think - you deleted your post... /shrug
e4e: You have ignored straight forward simple questions highlighted in blue and just thrown insults around. At best come down to our level and answer some of those questions will ya?
LH: I respect you, I think you are starting to explain your view more and more, but ultimately I think its built on a little confusion and semantics. But we will see. What are those 3 definitions of sin that you where talking about? or did you answer that already - can you link me to the thread or page number?
The main issue is what part of you is Christian. And I've gone over the definitions before, but I feel it would be best to do it again. I'm considering starting a whole new thread that explains my view, to the best of my ability.

But, for now:
1] Sin is transgression of the law
2] All unrighteousness is sin
3] Whatever is not of faith is sin
 

elected4ever

New member
The fact is that most Christians do not know the deference between that which is born of man and that which is born of the Spirit. That which is born of man is in sin and will always remain in sin. Not only is sin an act but it is also a condition. Sins are acts committed by those who are in the condition of sin. That is the natural state of man. Man by his nature is opposed to God. The works of the sin nature, which the bible refers to as flesh, are Galatians 5:19 *Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 *Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 *Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. The flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 8:1 *¶There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 *For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 *For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 *That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 *For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 *For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 *Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 *So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 *But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 *¶And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 *But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 *Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 *For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 *For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


All sin has been condemned in the flesh and the flesh is dead to God and dead to us. This is not us any more and to say that we are is the same as saying that we have not been set free from sin and still abide in its control. That means that Jesus was a failure. That means that the blood of Christ was not sufficient to cleans us from all sin. That means that the scripture lies when it says that our sins are remembered no more. That means that Jesus did not die once for all time and like the blood of bulls and goats must be reapplied upon the remembrance of sin. For that to occur then we make God and Jesus out a lier and make them the laughing stock of the world.Hebrews 10:1 *¶For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 *For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 *But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 *For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 *Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 *In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 *¶Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 *Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 *Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 *By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Hebrews 10:14 *For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 *Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 *This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 *And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 *Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 *¶Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 *By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 *And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 *Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 *Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)
24 *And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 *Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26 *For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 *But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

After you come to the knowledge of the truth (accepted Christ as savior) and you sinned again there is no more sacrifice for your new sin. You are again dead in your trespasses and sins and that without remedy.

Romans 7:14 *¶For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 *For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 *If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 *Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 *For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 *For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 *Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 *I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 *For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 *But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 *O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 *I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8:1 *¶There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:10 ¶And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.1 John 3:9 *Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
Untellectual said:
yes, matthew 5 reference. then there is 1 john. romans. chapter 8 of romans... etc.... all should be in context. I'm not trying to argue or debate a point with you. I'm trying to get you to see that in romans 8 it is common to come to the wrong conclusion about the requirement of the Law because there are different english appearances of the word law. I would hardly say that the law of the spirit and the law of sin and of death are both the Law fulfilled in us that Christ did for us. It has to be understood. So, again... I'll go learn myself. Just trying to help. Many say that the Law has been fulfilled so that we don't have to. This is wrongheaded.

As for you saying that there are two laws. I'm just going off of this quote for that:

I thought you were referring to Romans 8 here. If you trace back through our discussion, you will see that when you asked me why i was asking stupid questions that I had reason to assume that we were still on Romans 8.

Which verse do you have that says that Christ fulfilled the Law? There are a couple. Wondering which one you are looking at.

Shalom,

Jacob
We were still on Romans 8. And the point is that we cannot fulfill either of the two laws, the one of sin and death, or the law of the Spirit. But Christ fulfilled one for us, and fulfills the other in us. As for the verses where Christ fulfilled the law, the main one I use is the one where He says He came to fulfill the law.
 
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