ARCHIVE - World Trade Towers Blown Up

[tralon]

It matters to this American

It matters to this American

This was Saving Grace's quote; "The dead have NO COUNTRY anymore. The have only death. It matters NOT if it is 10,000 dead Americans...."

It matters to me some terrorist scumbags are free in this world and rejoicing over the deaths of thousands of Americans.It matters to me when I see the happy faces of Palestine people LAUGHING and rejoicing at the trajedy that has happened in America.It matters to me that over 200 brave New York firemen and policemen gave their lives to try to save others.These were DEFENSELESS American men, women and possibly CHILDREN. Does it matter? If it doesn't matter to you, then go back to your anti American country.And if there was a war, guess what? If I were younger and could enlist, I volunteer to be in the first wave.And if you were in my way, I roll over your anti american butt with the tracks of my tank and say back, "that's for the 50,000 dead you said that didn't matter."

 

[Projill]

Tralon, you're missing the point. The point is that all these humans, people who lived and breathed and had family and friends, people who were religionists and atheists, people who were gay, straight, bisexual, or whatever...they're no longer with us. And that is a true tragedy. It's not anti-American to say that their nationality is unimportant. It's just a fact. Their nationality is unimportant now. It doesn't matter if they were American, Mexican, Korean, Indian, or whatever. It would be just as great a tragedy to me if it were 10,000 Japanese who had died yesterday. What matters is that they are deceased and that there are people who lost someone yesterday. There are people who lost more than one loved one yesterday. What matters is that we rescue people for as long as we can. What matters is that we remain civilized and don't take out our anger over the situation on our brothers and sisters who are from the middle east and had no part in this tragedy. What matters is that we support each other and love each other and respect each other. This is a time to unite, not to divide.

 

[His_saving_Grac]

Warning, my brethren in Christ.

Don't let this tragedy be used to further a one world government, either.

Don't ask me to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with someone who does not believe that Christ is the only way to God, and don't expect me to give a false impression that living a life of sin is okay by shouting "down with the terrorists!" with the homosexuals.

In this time of tragedy, more than anything else, realize that WE ALL NEED GOD!!!

How would you ever know if you were? Do you HONESTLY believe the stereotypes on TV?

Homosexuality isn't branded on a person. Many work side by side with us, go to the bar with us, come over and eat dinner with us, and we NEVER know unless they decide to tell us.

If you can't stand shoulder to shoulder with everyone in unity against evil, then maybe you aren't standing as close to Christ as you think/presume.

 

[His_saving_Grac]

Re: It matters to this American

Re: It matters to this American

This was Saving Grace's quote; "The dead have NO COUNTRY anymore. The have only death. It matters NOT if it is 10,000 dead Americans...."

It matters to me some terrorist scumbags are free in this world and rejoicing over the deaths of thousands of Americans.It matters to me when I see the happy faces of Palestine people LAUGHING and rejoicing at the trajedy that has happened in America.It matters to me that over 200 brave New York firemen and policemen gave their lives to try to save others.These were DEFENSELESS American men, women and possibly CHILDREN. Does it matter? If it doesn't matter to you, then go back to your anti American country.And if there was a war, guess what? If I were younger and could enlist, I volunteer to be in the first wave.And if you were in my way, I roll over your anti american butt with the tracks of my tank and say back, "that's for the 50,000 dead you said that didn't matter."

That's two tralon. I fought in my war. You never fought in ANYTHING. I fought for the US in Panama. I was their for 5 years prior to that. I enlisted of my own vololition. I went to Korea to protect the US. Olympians.

What have YOU done? You sit here and whine about what you WOULD do, when you KNOW you can't do it. I went out and DID it!

You are still in the first wave, tralon. You are in the first wave of racist who will condemn the innocent for the deaths of the innocent before finding out the truth. God pray you never get jury duty, or have your hands in a critical thinking situation, because you sure have shown critical thinking is NOT a strong point with you.

 

[D__o__n]

Isn't that sweet? (tone is sarcastic for those that don't catch it)

Because I say "don't ask me to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with homosexuals," y'all automatically assume that I'm full of "hatred" and that I'm "condemning" people.

Nothing is further from the truth. Except maybe y'all.

'Cause the truth is, ya ain't gettin inta heaven on your good looks. Ya ain't gettin inta heaven because you denounced the tragedy that was heaped upon us yesterday. And standing shoulder-to-shoulder with those that say YOU ain't gettin inta heaven because you don't worship their version of God, and/or giving the appearance of acceptance of evil by standing with those that openly sin, ain't gonna get ya inta heaven, either.

There is only one way into heaven, and it's being offered to you even as you read this; not by me, but by God Himself.

If I say "don't expect me to give a false impression that living a life of sin is okay by shouting "down with the terrorists!" with the homosexuals," THAT'S what I'm railing against. Not that he/she is a homosexual, but that they're sinning in the eyes of God.

So pay attention to what I'm saying, and not what you think I'm saying based on your narrow-minded preconceived notions, or what you want me to be saying to give credence to your "everyone can get to heaven in their own way" crapola.

And don't worry; I don't hate anyone. I love them enough to tell them they're doing wrong, but I don't hate anyone. Hate is a work of the flesh, and is expressly mentioned in Galatians 5:19-21 as something we should avoid.

And as for your Arab friends...I feel for them. They're in danger right now from intellectually-challenged redneck dweebs who see only their nationality, and don't care whether they were involved with or supported the tragedy....

 

[His_saving_Grac]

Isn't that sweet? (tone is sarcastic for those that don't catch it)

Because I say "don't ask me to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with homosexuals," y'all automatically assume that I'm full of "hatred" and that I'm "condemning" people.

Nothing is further from the truth. Except maybe y'all.

'Cause the truth is, ya ain't gettin inta heaven on your good looks. Ya ain't gettin inta heaven because you denounced the tragedy that was heaped upon us yesterday. And standing shoulder-to-shoulder with those that say YOU ain't gettin inta heaven because you don't worship their version of God, and/or giving the appearance of acceptance of evil by standing with those that openly sin, ain't gonna get ya inta heaven, either.

There is only one way into heaven, and it's being offered to you even as you read this; not by me, but by God Himself.

If I say "don't expect me to give a false impression that living a life of sin is okay by shouting "down with the terrorists!" with the homosexuals," THAT'S what I'm railing against. Not that he/she is a homosexual, but that they're sinning in the eyes of God.

So pay attention to what I'm saying, and not what you think I'm saying based on your narrow-minded preconceived notions, or what you want me to be saying to give credence to your "everyone can get to heaven in their own way" crapola.

And don't worry; I don't hate anyone. I love them enough to tell them they're doing wrong, but I don't hate anyone. Hate is a work of the flesh, and is expressly mentioned in Galatians 5:19-21 as something we should avoid.

And as for your Arab friends...I feel for them. They're in danger right now from intellectually-challenged redneck dweebs who see only their nationality, and don't care whether they were involved with or supported the tragedy....

Noce song. I liked it in sunday school. Very inapropriate here though.

You don't hate ANYONE, yet you say "And for your arab friends..." You have tried judged and found guilty and condemned an entire race for the acts of a few. But that isn't hate. It never is to people who deny their hate.

We asked for unity. Can you HONESTLY say you have never shaken hands with a homosexual? That none of your friends are homosexual? Co-workers?

The fact is you do hate. It is of the flesh, and you allow it to rule you too. I don't really care who you stand shoulder and shoulder with as long as you DO stand shoulder to shoulder.

The "arabs" as you think, didn't do this. Certain individuals born into that race probably did. I have arab friends, and doctors, and cops, and firefighters. they are as outraged as I am. But to YOU they are all the same. The ARABS did it. Well, to those who are dancing in the street, the AMERICANS did it. Funny how you and they think the same. Don't you notice the similarities?

Those who did this will be found. They will be punished. But they are NOT an entire nation nor an entire people. Just like we have rednecks, radicals, white supremists, shristians who support, christians who reject, ....et all. Basically people who think millions of different ways on the same subject, they do too. NO RACE CAN BE GROUPED AND STEREOTYPED! To do so, lets yourself open to hate.

So you hate. Now deny it and see how much better your life can be.

 

[tralon]

Remember what you said

Remember what you said

Just remember what you said. if some of your terrorists friends blow up your wife or children in a plane or building someday? See if you'll be so understanding then eh? As for being a war vet, I don't believe that either.Next, you'll tell me you commanded a crew of Apache helicopters. The real hereos are dead, while big mouths like you brag about what they never did at all.

 

[Projill]

Re: Remember what you said

Re: Remember what you said

Just remember what you said. if some of your terrorists friends blow up your wife or children in a plane or building someday? See if you'll be so understanding then eh? As for being a war vet, I don't believe that either.Next, you'll tell me you commanded a crew of Apache helicopters. The real hereos are dead, while big mouths like you brag about what they never did at all.

Well, that post was chock full of Christian love and tolerance and that turning the other cheek stuff. Are you ever capable of thinking rationally?

 

[His_saving_Grac]

Re: Remember what you said

Re: Remember what you said

Just remember what you said. if some of your terrorists friends blow up your wife or children in a plane or building someday? See if you'll be so understanding then eh? As for being a war vet, I don't believe that either.Next, you'll tell me you commanded a crew of Apache helicopters. The real hereos are dead, while big mouths like you brag about what they never did at all.

I really don't care what you believe. You are someone who NEVER volunteered for ANYTHING in his entire life, but sits beside the TV and screams about the injustice in the world. You will NEVER do anything about it, just whine like a litle girl.

You disgust me. You cry about christianity, but you know nothing about it. You talk the talk, but have spent your life too cowardly to walk the walk. Shut up and do something or just shut up.

 

[surreal]

i just wanted to post this...

i just wanted to post this...

I wrote this in about 20 minutes for honors English today because we had to write about the recent tragedies. I dunno if anyone will find meaning in it, but it really does mean something.

You'll probably notice I did a little BS in there and some 'story-esque' stuff because heck, everyone needs a good grade

--------

Tuesday morning I woke up and the clock said 6:07. I wake up around that time every day but when I went to get my towel so I could take a shower my mom said something along the lines about watching the news for a minute. I dropped the towel and went downstairs, still not quite awake. I looked at the colorful rectangle that is the screen of our television and saw the 767 fly into the exterior wall of the World Trade Center. I didn’t immediately recognize how horrific this event was. The first thing that shook me was that the world had just changed. Terrorists had showed up our entire government using public transportation. Things like this happen every day in movies and on television and in our minds. They aren’t supposed to happen in real life.
So there goes reality. I almost missed the bus because I was watching the news, waiting for a number like everyone else. On the bus ride to school I was hit with how every news station was spitting out numbers, and I thought how that was all we had left. It is much easier to take things quantitatively that qualitatively, because numbers seem so solid, but so abstract at the same time. If I told you your mother died it is much harder than telling you that one person died. The public wanted numbers, not names. Except the ones who knew they were going to suffer for the answers. The politicians said that terrorists are trying to create chaos. I learned in a very real way for the first time on Tuesday that nothing is perfect.
The politicians are trying to declare war. People aren’t the problem it is the concept of terrorism that is the problem. How do you declare war against an idea? How do you defeat an idea? The only way to crush one idea is with another. You can’t physically attack an idea. You can attack the people who started it, but the idea won’t go away. When I first read this bit of philosophy I thought, “Right. So we need an idea to stop terrorism.” The problem with that is, it is actually the other way around. Terrorism is an idea to stop establishment, a solution for something that doesn’t seem like a problem in the first place. Problems are relative.
The problem for the terrorists could have been a lot of things. It could be establishment, religion, capitalism, or retaliation for past occurrences. The list goes on. For the U.S. the problem is the terrorists, the concept of terrorism, the attacks on innocent civilians, the list extends further here too. What seems almost comical about it is that after all this time we’re still following Hammurabi’s code. We still think an eye for an eye is the best way. Shakespeare once said, “The rarer action lies in virtue not in vengeance.” In principal everyone agrees that it is best to forgive and forget. No one is going to forget where they were when they found out the World Trade Center went down. I was waking up. It was 6:07.

----------

 

[His_saving_Grac]

An excellent paper. And very true. Don't worry about the need for adding the feelings in there. It makes it come to life. And you are very right about the numbers. The names strike to hard, too fast. They will come, and they will come the day these sick individuals who planned this see God. And they will feel the pain 1000 fold that each of the dead felt, for each of the dead.

 

[D__o__n]

You're a very funny person, Saving Grace. You also have a reading comprehension problem.

Someone mentioned, in a post previous to mine, that they have Arab friends who are being persecuted.

Now, let's look at your reading comprehension problem. You picked out "your arab friends..." Let's look at the next four words: I feel for them.

WHOOPS. That was a statement of hatred, wasn't it?

How about the wording I used next? They're in danger right now from intellectually-challenged redneck dweebs who see only their nationality, and don't care whether they were involved with or supported the tragedy....

I suggest, Saving Grace, you get off your moral high horse and learn to read. Oh, and while you're at it: Learn the difference between "judging" and "condemning."

Have I shaken hands with homosexuals? Worked with them? You betcha. And while I was shaking hands, and smiling, and being friendly, I told them that God didn't like what they were doing, that He wanted them in heaven with him, but that they were going to have to accept Christ as their savior and repent first.

How about you? You man enough to tell people when they're sinning? Or do you promote "there are many different roads to God"?

 

[His_saving_Grac]

Sorry Don

Sorry Don

Lets see. You said

Let's look at the next four words: I feel for them.

But not until AFTER you said

Isn't that sweet? (tone is sarcastic for those that don't catch it)

Now please tell me when you decided that you were no longer sarcastic? Because the majority of your post WAS sarcastic, and I had to take THAT as sarcastic too. Remember, feeling change the meanings of sentences, and feelings do NOT come across in the written word unless you STATE your feelings. You stated sarcasm. You never stated you were done using it.

I suggest, Saving Grace, you get off your moral high horse and learn to read. Oh, and while you're at it: Learn the difference between "judging" and "condemning."

I know the difference. Most christians don't or when they think they do, they use the term "judging righteously!" as if God gave them special knowledge in judging.

And you are doing this judging yourself since my post WASN'T an attack on you. I never put you down.

Have I shaken hands with homosexuals? Worked with them? You betcha. And while I was shaking hands, and smiling, and being friendly, I told them that God didn't like what they were doing, that He wanted them in heaven with him, but that they were going to have to accept Christ as their savior and repent first.

That's wonderful . But my question was about those you DON'T know about? Are you saying you know the sexual preferences of EVERY person you have ever come in contact with?

Again, my point was to stand together in unison against those who attacked and killed these people from a cowardly position. I never asked you more.

How about you? You man enough to tell people when they're sinning? Or do you promote "there are many different roads to God"?

You really don't know me. I post in many boards. I am called the "bleacher preacher" in one baseball forum because of my use of scripture and telling people when they are acting in an unchristian manner. And if or when you see more of my posts here, you will see I do the same. I am no where near perfect, and I know I have my faults. But one of them usually isn't belittling someone (except when someone calls me on my military background and insults like tralon. To the rest I appologise for having to read what I said to him)

All I said about you was you hate. This response of yours was full of anger and anger leads to hate. All I ASKED you to do was

So you hate. Now deny it and see how much better your life can be.

That wasn't a belittling remark, it was showing that you do hate, just as all of us do. That is part of being human and not being Gods. We have emotions and they sometimes rule us. This was a request to try (just as we all try ) to deny that feeling.

 

[surreal]

The problem is...

The problem is...

The problem is that you refuse to see any other way to God, or even to see that maybe there is no path to God at all. Until you are willing to accept others may think differently, there is no point in you discussing anything on these forums. If you can't even understand how someone would dissagree with you or accept that you might be wrong, you won't discuss anything, just randomly shout out your opinions. That won't change anyone's minds, just affirm your self-righteousness.

 

[His_saving_Grac]

surreal

surreal

Just wondering who your post is directed at. You didn't state towards whom.

If it was for me, that's not true about how I am. I sit here and read much more than I post. I see all sides of the issues. There are many many topics here I have read that I haven't formed any conclusions on them, as those who DO know are still talking their sides, and I have alot to learn.

But of course we all have our opinions. And this forum is a perfect place to post those opinions, many of which get shot down.

The problem is many do love to shoot down the opinion with personal attacks. That hurts. It should be discussed instead, but too many don't like to do that.

Anyway, I pray you are having a good day and you and yours are blessed by His light.

 

[rapt]

Matt 5:43
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Luke 6:24
But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
25
Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.
26
Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
27
But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28
Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29
And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
30
Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31
And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32
For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33
And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34
And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35
But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36
Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
37
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven

Does "judge not" only apply to those who want to judge YOU? Look at the context here! Jesus is OBVIOUSLY talking about judging and condemning those that you don't really want to forgive, isn't He?

46
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
47
Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
48
He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
49
But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

IS JESUS REALLY OUR LORD, OR NOT? WHAT DO WE REALLY TRUST, ANYWAY? The Lord, or our own strength? (We often hear preachers say "you can't do 'it' in your own strength". Is "it" only applicable to walking obediently in some things, or is it applicable to everything we do?

John 18
36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

If Jesus wouldn't let His servants defend HIM with carnal weapons of war (sword, gun, bomb, napalm), how much less worthy is a mere worldly nation of the sacrifice of our bodies? Shall we kill our enemies seeking to secure an earthly nation, and think we are doing God a service? Do we seek a "continuing city" on this earth?

Hebrews 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

Heb 11:8
By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go.
10
For he looked forward to the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

13
These all died in faith, not having received what was promised, but having seen it and greeted it from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
14
For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland.
15
If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return.
16
But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.

Abraham knew the true inheritance is not of this world.


Matthew 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

2 Corinthians 10
3
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4
(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
5
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ


Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Remember the Crusades? They thought THEY were doing God a service, didn't they? Don't we see their works as those of madmen today? Indeed they were. Let us learn from them, and not repeat such madness.

Can one love his enemy and KILL him?

Was Jesus a "gutless pacifist"?

I think not.

Were all the martyrs of Jesus throughout the history of the world, who refused to resist their murderers "gutless pacifists"?

They were TRUE Christians.

 

[D__o__n]

Reading comprehension problem still applies, Saving Grace.

I do not hate anyone. You don't believe that; you don't have to. Like you said, I don't know you; and you don't know me.

If you did, you'd know that I profess "righteous judgement"...but not to the tune of Enyart and his crowd.

(For those that are just now figuring it out, yes, I'm that "Don" from some time back, that ticked off a LOT of people...figure that means I'll be banned from this board sometime over the next few days....)

Saving Grace, your explanation proves the problem with reading comprehension. I suggest that in the future, you read my words for what they say, not what you *think* they're saying. In other words, read them twice.

Let me simplify one thing for you: We are to judge. In this phrase, Mr. Enyart is correct. However, we are NOT to judge to condemnation (i.e., we are not to condemn). But each time we determine that something is sinful, we have "judged." Each time we tell someone that what they're doing is wrong, we have "judged." And we are supposed to do that!

What we have to teach people is that the admonition to "judge not" is speaking about hypocrisy.

Saving Grace, look at my last few lines again: "They're in danger right now from intellectually-challenged redneck dweebs who see only their nationality, and don't care whether they were involved with or supported the tragedy...." That should have put my statement "and as for your arab friends...I feel for them" in context. But you prefer to place the blame on me, and insist that I "hate."

Should I now make the claim that you "hate" me because of your perception that I'm a "hater"? If I do, I'm using the same criteria that you've used: casual glancing over of your posts, and the way you're railing against me.

There was no hatred in my post AT ALL. Lots of sarcasm, yes, but compare it to Maranatha's posts, where he apparently endorses nuking the entire Middle East.

I do not hate anyone, Saving Grace. You don't believe that; and you don't have to. I've said it. Based on what you say about not being able to tell anything about anyone because we're in "print media," you either have to take it at face value, or prove otherwise.

 

[D__o__n]

Surreal, you are SO wrong. During my lifetime, I've been a Methodist, a Mormon, an agnostic, and I even delved into karma for a while. And that's just a few of the explorations I've done.

I've explored other paths, and whether there's a god or not.

THERE IS! AND THERE'S ONLY 1 WAY TO HIM!

Jesus Christ said, I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

He didn't say "there are many paths, and it doesn't matter which one you take." He didn't say, "Feel free to do whatever YOU think is necessary to get into heaven."

There is only 1 way. There is only 1 truth. There is only 1 life. And they are all three the same path.

Just something for you to think about. The next time you want to say we don't understand the other point(s) of view, consider that you didn't ask if we understood the other point of view (i.e., you committed the same error you accused us of).

 

[His_saving_Grac]

D__o__n

D__o__n

Reading comprehension problem still applies, Saving Grace.

Yes it does Don. It appears you are still reading that my posts were an attack on YOU. So let me say it as clearly as I can. I am NOT attacking DON the PERSON whatever his/her real name is!

No if you are talking about MY reading comprehension, since you are having problems with others understanding you, maybe it is writing comprehension that is the problem right now? Are you open to that possibility? That is NOT an attack, but an observation.

If you did, you'd know that I profess "righteous judgement"...but not to the tune of Enyart and his crowd.

Neither do I

(For those that are just now figuring it out, yes, I'm that "Don" from some time back, that ticked off a LOT of people...figure that means I'll be banned from this board sometime over the next few days....)

I saw many others get banned after you (I would assume, because I didn't see you get banned but I did see their posts say they were banned). For some reason, just before they get banned, they get called "zadig". I have no idea what the moderators mean by that as I do not find that name in the bible.

Saving Grace, your explanation proves the problem with reading comprehension. I suggest that in the future, you read my words for what they say, not what you *think* they're saying. In other words, read them twice.

No, actually it doesn't prove that. All it proves is you believe we have a misunderstnding and that you assume it is all on my part and the part of others, and not on the WAY you are presenting your case. As far as reading what one "thinks" someone is saying, aren't you doing the same thing to me?

Let me simplify one thing for you: We are to judge

That is very simple for you to say. It is NOT simple for you to prove. The only places that appears is in letters to CHURCH LEADERS by Paul to his churches while he was out or in jail. Thye were NOT directed to each and every person in the populace. In fact, until the scripture became available to all, only the church was allowed to judge, and everything they said was "righteous" even when they had the inqusition, the holy wars, the witchhunts, when they had Gallileo arrested, when Copernicus was so afraid that he only stated that the earth revolved around the sun when he was already dying because the church "righteously judged" that anyone claiming that the Earth revolved around the sun was a heretic. Do you need more examples of how great we are at "judging righteously" or even judging correctly? I will leave it to the only one who can actually see all and knows all.

What we have to teach people is that the admonition to "judge not" is speaking about hypocrisy.

To be a hypocrate is to be a greek actor. That is what a hypocrate was. There is no proof that THAT is what it means. Take the book at face value and not at what you "think" it means just like you admonished me in the first sentence. If I have so much trouble understanding what YOU are saying (and everyone else is too) then how much harder is it for any of us to decide what JESUS said. He never told us to judge. Paul did. Jesus said "only he who sent me can judge" I don't think that was you lol

the way you're railing against me.

I'm very sure I made that clear that I wasn't. Again, it's that read the words and not what you think is in the words. My words have stated, now for the third time, I am NOT ATTACKING YOU.

Lots of sarcasm, yes

As you admit there was lot's of sarcasm. My question was when did you stop using the sarcasm. You never stated you were done using it, so I read it the way it was presented,"note the sarcasm". Remember sating that? That is why I took your entire post to be sarcastic. I explained why. Now please explain why you want it to seem I am attacking you?

I do not hate anyone, Saving Grace

Never said you did. I said you hate. There are many things to hate. I hate the cowardness of this attack. I HATE.I have to try and deny that hate and make it make me stronger in my love. You hate the idea of homosexuality. I am sure there are other things, ideals you hate. It is human. But I didn't say you hate a pearson, just that you hate. To deny that would be to try and place yourself on a higher level than God, since he too has stated his hate.

Anyway that was my statement.

Again, I pray for all those who have suffered from thsi tragedy and those who will suffer in the reprecussions to come. I pray you understand I am not attacking you. I pray that I will understand you. I finish my prayer asking for the largest understanding of all in understanding the Lord and what He wants from me. Amen.

 

[D__o__n]

In a LOT of ways, we're too much alike.

The ONLY thing I will address is your statement that we are only told by Paul to judge. I disagree. John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgement.

Jesus said that. Why? Because He was telling the Pharisees that they were wrong for telling Him not to do anything on the sabbath. They were judging according to the appearance, and not judging what was actually being done.

In Matthew 7, where we are told to "judge not," we are NOT being told to not judge. The phrasing goes like this: "judge not lest ye be judged; for by what measure ye judge, the same shall be meted out." A warning against hypocrisy, pure and simple. The explanation is, don't condemn your neighbor for breaking one of the 600-odd laws when you're breaking about 37 of them yourself.

So the question really comes down to: Did Jesus tell us not to judge, or did He tell us to judge? One must reconcile these two passages, and figure how they agree; otherwise, one must conclude that God is contradicting Himself, and is therefore an author of confusion.

Care to start a new thread? Or e-mail me so we can discuss this further?