The Ever Present Problem of Atheism (HOF thread)
- Thread starter Freak
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temple2006
New member
Zak...I did not know that we can almost, nearly prove annihilation at the time of death. But anyway if 75 years of entertainment satisfies you, who am I to say...what a waste!
>>Zakath's atheism fails once again to provide real answers to real issues.<<
This is wrong. There is a difference between a "real" awnser (which Zakaths awnser is) and a "correct" awnser.
The meaning of Life is one of the most ancient of questions. Most people struggle to provide any kind of awnser whatsoever, and most people stop asking that question very early because they didn't find the awnser and it made them uncomfortable. Most people at the END of their lives suddenly start to become very interrested in the awnser, because they want to know what the did with life, and if their life held the "meaning" which according to the "correct" awnser it should have held. The reason most people don't find an awnser is because of there is no "correct" awnser to the question.
The "meaning" of life is a question we aks because our brain is a never stopping pattern seeking device. We seek patterns everywhere, this is how people LEARN things. Babies take several months to learn what gravity does, and several more to learn how to cope with it in a upwardly mobile fashion. The pattern of "falling down, hurt your body, pain" quickly establishes that gravity is a ***** and not to be trifled with.
However, our brain is ALSO good at "imagining" a pattern where there is none. Look at the white noise of the TV screen, and most people see patterns. From the theoretical physics perspective, the white noise on your screen is random. So the patterns most people see are not really there.
So, it is quite possible that the "meaning" of life is a question that our brain asks because that is the way the brain functions. However, from a BIOLOGICAL point of view life has only one meaning: live long enough to procreate and provide your offspring with the tools they need to do well at procreating themselves. That way, your genes spread the most.
Since human beings are very spiritual in nature, this awnser doesn't satisfy many people. They seek a more "enlightened" awnser to the question, but they don't realise that there may be NO awnser from a universal point of view, or from a biological point of view, mainly because the biological question doesn't deal with "meanings" and "patterns" from a spiritual point of view. Since there as yet is very little science concerning the "spiritual world", there are no definite "correct" awnsers to that question.
So, we humans are free to come up with any awnser that satisfies the person in question. Some say that "God did it" is a satisfying awnser, and they look forward to joining those they love in heaven. Others, Hindu's perhaps, believe in reincarnation on this earth after they die. They are therefore very concerned about the chances they will have in their next life.
Some, like atheists, believe that this life is the ONLY life that any person will have. Therefore, they seek to experience certain things in this life. Some seek to experience all facets of this world and travel the globe. Others seek to experience love and seek a girlfriend. And yet others seek entertainment and will therefore go to festivals, parties and theme parks. Some aks themselves: "what do I find important in life?" and then seek to involve themselves in that important thing. However, the realisation that you have only this life (and therefore that other people do too) makes the atheist very interrested in how this life is proceeding. They therefore want to make the best of it. For those with empathy, this also means that they want OTHER people to make the best of it as well.
While christianty teaches "Love thy neighbour", very few christians actually FOLLOW that teaching, because the realisation that for them the goal is to go to heaven makes them far less concerned about this life. Hindu's are very concerned about their Karma and will help other people not out of kindness but out of concern and fear. Only atheists help people because they WANT to help people.
I am an atheists, and I help certain people because for me this life is the only one they will get. I will help them trying to overcome their fears and their flaws. Why? Because I want them to get the most out of their life as well. THAT is what is important to me.
This is wrong. There is a difference between a "real" awnser (which Zakaths awnser is) and a "correct" awnser.
The meaning of Life is one of the most ancient of questions. Most people struggle to provide any kind of awnser whatsoever, and most people stop asking that question very early because they didn't find the awnser and it made them uncomfortable. Most people at the END of their lives suddenly start to become very interrested in the awnser, because they want to know what the did with life, and if their life held the "meaning" which according to the "correct" awnser it should have held. The reason most people don't find an awnser is because of there is no "correct" awnser to the question.
The "meaning" of life is a question we aks because our brain is a never stopping pattern seeking device. We seek patterns everywhere, this is how people LEARN things. Babies take several months to learn what gravity does, and several more to learn how to cope with it in a upwardly mobile fashion. The pattern of "falling down, hurt your body, pain" quickly establishes that gravity is a ***** and not to be trifled with.
However, our brain is ALSO good at "imagining" a pattern where there is none. Look at the white noise of the TV screen, and most people see patterns. From the theoretical physics perspective, the white noise on your screen is random. So the patterns most people see are not really there.
So, it is quite possible that the "meaning" of life is a question that our brain asks because that is the way the brain functions. However, from a BIOLOGICAL point of view life has only one meaning: live long enough to procreate and provide your offspring with the tools they need to do well at procreating themselves. That way, your genes spread the most.
Since human beings are very spiritual in nature, this awnser doesn't satisfy many people. They seek a more "enlightened" awnser to the question, but they don't realise that there may be NO awnser from a universal point of view, or from a biological point of view, mainly because the biological question doesn't deal with "meanings" and "patterns" from a spiritual point of view. Since there as yet is very little science concerning the "spiritual world", there are no definite "correct" awnsers to that question.
So, we humans are free to come up with any awnser that satisfies the person in question. Some say that "God did it" is a satisfying awnser, and they look forward to joining those they love in heaven. Others, Hindu's perhaps, believe in reincarnation on this earth after they die. They are therefore very concerned about the chances they will have in their next life.
Some, like atheists, believe that this life is the ONLY life that any person will have. Therefore, they seek to experience certain things in this life. Some seek to experience all facets of this world and travel the globe. Others seek to experience love and seek a girlfriend. And yet others seek entertainment and will therefore go to festivals, parties and theme parks. Some aks themselves: "what do I find important in life?" and then seek to involve themselves in that important thing. However, the realisation that you have only this life (and therefore that other people do too) makes the atheist very interrested in how this life is proceeding. They therefore want to make the best of it. For those with empathy, this also means that they want OTHER people to make the best of it as well.
While christianty teaches "Love thy neighbour", very few christians actually FOLLOW that teaching, because the realisation that for them the goal is to go to heaven makes them far less concerned about this life. Hindu's are very concerned about their Karma and will help other people not out of kindness but out of concern and fear. Only atheists help people because they WANT to help people.
I am an atheists, and I help certain people because for me this life is the only one they will get. I will help them trying to overcome their fears and their flaws. Why? Because I want them to get the most out of their life as well. THAT is what is important to me.
Zakath
Resident Atheist
ZMan,
Question: Where did I ever indicate that my life focus is entertainment?
Answer: No where. While I have stated several times on the board that the reason I post here is "for entertainment", I do not consider the occasional post on TOL "living my life".
Now if you have a gallows from which you'd like to suspend the entertainment industry, that's your privilege. Just don't hang "the Atheists" with that rope...
I think it is a measure of some people's (lack of) depth of character that they cannot possibly conceive of anything more than entertainment as a life focus if they give up religion. Attempting to tar your enemies with that which you find reprehensible is merely intellectual laziness unless you've made an effort to find out what they really think.
Zakath
Resident Atheist
How many humans have you seen die T2K?
In every case (of a non-comatose individual) I've seen it goes like this...
10 mins before death:
Body produces heat, vital organs function to some degree, individual communicative.
10 mins after death:
Body dropping to room temperature, organs cease to function as blood and oxygen are denied, individual does not respond to any attempt to communicate.
Can you provide another conflicting observation?
Perhaps you've seen someone "raised from the dead"?
See my comment to Zman above.
Z Man
New member
Ok, ok, sorry for making you look like an "entertainment" junkie. Maybe you're not the one to take life as some sort of amusement park, but there is some kind of hope in your life. Everyone has hope.
And for some people, that hope is in the pleasures of this world. Some try drugs to find peace and joy, others sex. Basically, if someone does not have hope in God, then they are left with only what this world has to offer. Thats all I was trying to say.
Haha! The Paul Crouch, TBN version; that's funny! Actually, I hate religion. Anyone who tries to live a good life to be acceptable in God's eyes, to me, is a religious individual. I realize that no one can live a good life, and that God is the only one who can make us "acceptable". But you don't want to be bothered with all these details, nor bored with what's real...
Basically Zakath, whatever an Athiest sets their goals for; whatever in life they are trying to attain or accomplish, this becomes their hope; their drive and compassion in life. The result is, after a lifetime of pursuing your goals, and loving what you have done and are pursuing to do, this drive for success becomes your God. But when your time comes (and if God is gracious enough to allow you to reach old age) and you look back on your life, you will realize and question the worth of your success. What did it really accomplish? It all amounts to nothing in the end...
>>And for some people, that hope is in the pleasures of this world. Some try drugs to find peace and joy, others sex. Basically, if someone does not have hope in God, then they are left with only what this world has to offer. Thats all I was trying to say.<<
Well, they may believe in other things than just God. Perhaps reincarnation, Karma or Allah. Others believe in "doing the right thing", or "love thy neighbour". They might even believe that there is nothing after you die. Does this make life meaningless? Not in the least. While it doesn't have the meaning Christians would attribute to it, it DOES have the meaning you YOURSELF attribute to it. So what if that meaning isn't God?
>>Basically Zakath, whatever an Athiest sets their goals for; whatever in life they are trying to attain or accomplish, this becomes their hope; their drive and compassion in life. <<
True.
>>The result is, after a lifetime of pursuing your goals, and loving what you have done and are pursuing to do, this drive for success becomes
your God. But when your time comes (and if God is gracious enough to allow you to reach old age) and you look back on your life, you will realize and
question the worth of your success. <<
Everyone asks these questions. The awnser is NOT: "did my life have any meaning?" but "Did it have the meaning I attributed to it?". People die and that is a fact. What happens to them afterwards is definitely NOT a fact. It could be that there is no God, in which case christians have wasted their life in pursuit of a delusion. Atheists however set their own goals, and a wasted life would be one in which you didn't accomplish any of them.
>>What did it really accomplish? <<
Hopefuly: that which you set out to do.
>>It all amounts to nothing in the end...<<
That depends on what you call "nothing". I woulnd't call "helping others" nothing. I wouldn't call "a cure for cancer" nothing. I wouldn't call "walking on the moon" nothing. I woulnd't call "Being a millionare" nothing. I wouldn't call "Making people happy" nothing.
Yes, in 5 billion years time our Sun will die. Everyone on earth at that time will perish. In about 100 billion years our universe will die a slow heat-death, with no usable energy left. However, IN THE MEAN TIME, life DOES have a meaning, namely the one we ourselves attribute to it.
Well, they may believe in other things than just God. Perhaps reincarnation, Karma or Allah. Others believe in "doing the right thing", or "love thy neighbour". They might even believe that there is nothing after you die. Does this make life meaningless? Not in the least. While it doesn't have the meaning Christians would attribute to it, it DOES have the meaning you YOURSELF attribute to it. So what if that meaning isn't God?
>>Basically Zakath, whatever an Athiest sets their goals for; whatever in life they are trying to attain or accomplish, this becomes their hope; their drive and compassion in life. <<
True.
>>The result is, after a lifetime of pursuing your goals, and loving what you have done and are pursuing to do, this drive for success becomes
your God. But when your time comes (and if God is gracious enough to allow you to reach old age) and you look back on your life, you will realize and
question the worth of your success. <<
Everyone asks these questions. The awnser is NOT: "did my life have any meaning?" but "Did it have the meaning I attributed to it?". People die and that is a fact. What happens to them afterwards is definitely NOT a fact. It could be that there is no God, in which case christians have wasted their life in pursuit of a delusion. Atheists however set their own goals, and a wasted life would be one in which you didn't accomplish any of them.
>>What did it really accomplish? <<
Hopefuly: that which you set out to do.
>>It all amounts to nothing in the end...<<
That depends on what you call "nothing". I woulnd't call "helping others" nothing. I wouldn't call "a cure for cancer" nothing. I wouldn't call "walking on the moon" nothing. I woulnd't call "Being a millionare" nothing. I wouldn't call "Making people happy" nothing.
Yes, in 5 billion years time our Sun will die. Everyone on earth at that time will perish. In about 100 billion years our universe will die a slow heat-death, with no usable energy left. However, IN THE MEAN TIME, life DOES have a meaning, namely the one we ourselves attribute to it.
Z Man
New member
It could be that there is a God, in which case atheists have wasted their life in a pursuit of a delusion.
Are you saying that Christians don't have goals in life? Everybody has certain things they would like to do in their lifetime. The difference between a Christians goals and an Atheists goals is that we try to do things to and for the glory of God; you know, things that really matter. But atheists pursue their goals for themselves, which really dosn't matter or count for anything when you're dead. Those who die with the most toys still die.
What's the point? One day you could help cure a young child's sickness, and the next, that kid could get hit by a car and die. One day you could be walking on the moon, and the next, your spaceship blows up. One day you could win the $100 billion dollar jackpot lottery, the next, you could get in a fatal car crash.
Life is a dream; a drop in the ocean compared to eternal realities. We must pursue the life we were meant to live when we were created; we must try and attain that perfect morality and holiness that we were created for. We must strive to live in the image of our Heavenly Creator; because in the end, this is all that matters... :angel:
temple2006
New member
Zak...I have seen bodies cease to function and rigor mortis set in. Do you think I have led such a protected, sheltered life? BUT, prove to me that there is no afterlife and I will stop hoping but I will not stop 'living' as I do not DO THINGS in the hope of getting some gold stars or something. Gimme a break, man.
>>Are you saying that Christians don't have goals in life? Everybody has certain things they would like to do in their lifetime. The difference between a Christians goals and an Atheists goals is that we try to do things to and for the glory of God; you know, things that really matter. <<
And how would Atheists goals NOT really matter? You see, the problem with your persepctive is that to you all meaning MUST come from God. For an atheists, "meaning" is something we ourselves impose. There doesn't have to be a God for something to be meaningfull. As such, what is important to one person is not important to another. Which creates tremendous diversity and is basically the strength of humanity.
>>But atheists pursue their goals for themselves, which really dosn't matter or count for anything when you're dead. Those who die with the most toys still die. <<
So? If God doesn't exists, how is that different from YOUR life? "Everyone dies, not everyone really lives."
>>What's the point? One day you could help cure a young child's sickness, and the next, that kid could get hit by a car and die. One day you could be walking on the moon, and the next, your spaceship blows up. One day you could win the $100 billion dollar jackpot lottery, the next, you could get in a fatal car crash. <<
The point is that I WANT TO. I want to walk on the moon, have friends, find a cure for cancer and I want to be a millionare. I call that my "goals" in life just as sure as God is your goal in life. You don't think my goals are worthy, then so be it. However, to you all goals other than God are not worhty. And this mindset has caused great problems in this world, because all other things are NOT important. So, solving world hunger is NOT important, peace is NOT important, the environment is not important.
>>Life is a dream; a drop in the ocean compared to eternal realities. We must pursue the life we were meant to live when we were created; we must try and attain that perfect morality and holiness that we were created for. We must strive to live in the image of our Heavenly Creator; because in the end, this is all that matters...<<
That only matters to christians. And besides , one of the facets of christianty is that the "perfect" morality is unatainable because of the nature of SIN. Only one has ever achieved it, and you worship Him as a God because to you he IS God. Good luck achieving it. And besides the fact that I don't believe in "perfect" morality, I already have one with which I'm very happy.
And how would Atheists goals NOT really matter? You see, the problem with your persepctive is that to you all meaning MUST come from God. For an atheists, "meaning" is something we ourselves impose. There doesn't have to be a God for something to be meaningfull. As such, what is important to one person is not important to another. Which creates tremendous diversity and is basically the strength of humanity.
>>But atheists pursue their goals for themselves, which really dosn't matter or count for anything when you're dead. Those who die with the most toys still die. <<
So? If God doesn't exists, how is that different from YOUR life? "Everyone dies, not everyone really lives."
>>What's the point? One day you could help cure a young child's sickness, and the next, that kid could get hit by a car and die. One day you could be walking on the moon, and the next, your spaceship blows up. One day you could win the $100 billion dollar jackpot lottery, the next, you could get in a fatal car crash. <<
The point is that I WANT TO. I want to walk on the moon, have friends, find a cure for cancer and I want to be a millionare. I call that my "goals" in life just as sure as God is your goal in life. You don't think my goals are worthy, then so be it. However, to you all goals other than God are not worhty. And this mindset has caused great problems in this world, because all other things are NOT important. So, solving world hunger is NOT important, peace is NOT important, the environment is not important.
>>Life is a dream; a drop in the ocean compared to eternal realities. We must pursue the life we were meant to live when we were created; we must try and attain that perfect morality and holiness that we were created for. We must strive to live in the image of our Heavenly Creator; because in the end, this is all that matters...<<
That only matters to christians. And besides , one of the facets of christianty is that the "perfect" morality is unatainable because of the nature of SIN. Only one has ever achieved it, and you worship Him as a God because to you he IS God. Good luck achieving it. And besides the fact that I don't believe in "perfect" morality, I already have one with which I'm very happy.
To christians, there are people and there is God. People are insignificant compared to God,so only God is important to them. All other things are not. To atheists, all there is is people. Therefore, people are IMPORTANT. Which is a very good incentive to develop a good morale. Christians derive their morale from the bible, which is filled with hororstiories of rape, murder and torture committed by the followers of God. And that they call a "good" morality. Go figure.......
Zakath
Resident Atheist
No offense intended, T2K. Realize that since I do not know you personally, I have no idea regarding your life experience, gender, or age. All I have to go on is a few posts and your profile. That's why I qualified the post. To my understanding, most people below middle-age in the U.S. have never actually seen another human being die.
How can one prove that? I doubt I could be any more successful than you could proving the non-existence of the Invisible Pink Unicorn, or garden fairies, trolls, or honest politicians.
I cannot prove what does not exist. I base my belief on the evidence I have available. You base your belief on hope.
Therein lies a major difference between us, T2K.
Perhaps you can produce some empirical evidence supporting continued non-corporeal existence for us to consider...
temple2006
New member
But Zak, Lack of evidence is not evidence anymore than my lack of proof positive that an afterlife exists. I suspect that atheists live happy productive lives, but so do I. I enjoy my life so much that I want it to continue and continue and continue. I sense an immense longing in myself. I do not fear death because for me dying is being born into another dimension just as emerging from my mother's womb I was born into a very different dimension, a world of light that my senses could and did experience. I use the preceeding as a metaphor. The poet, Gibran says, what is dying but standing in the wind and melting into the sun.
Zakath
Resident Atheist
Truly said. Lack of evidence is just that - NO EVIDENCE!
Without evidence, all that's left is to either say that something doesn't exist or to fill the perceived void with comforting fantasies...
I should hope so. Religionists continually claim that embracing their particular set of beliefs will provide happiness and productivity.
"Wanting don't make it so." (See "NO EVIDENCE" above).
Z Man
New member
You got it backwards: To love God and put your hope in Him gives one a greater understanding of the world around them. Everything becomes important to that individual, especially the things that involve charity. But a life without God is meaningless, and hopeless. All the things you may accomplish in life amounts to nothing in the end. NOTHING!
Life has no purpose
Unless it's Yours
Life without You has no goal
All that fulfills me
Is doing Your Will
Knowing that You're in control
All That I Am
Insyderz
>>You got it backwards: To love God and put your hope in Him gives one a greater understanding of the world around them. <<
No, it doesn't. It gives them a DIFFERENT understanding, sure, but not nessecarily a better one. Ofcourse, you think its better but that is mainly because you cannot see the difference between belief and knowledge.
>>Everything becomes important to that individual, especially the things that involve charity. <<
Really? That is certainly not the attitiude of most christians.
>>But a life without God is meaningless, and hopeless. All the things you may accomplish in life amounts to nothing in the end. NOTHING!<<
Once again: helping others isn't nothing, a cure for cancer isn't nothing, and love isn't nothing. Life isn't meaningless TO ME, and life isn't HOPELESS to me. In the end, that is all that matters.
But what about you: striving for a "perfect" morality you know you canot attain because the only person who could was God himself. Seems pretty hopeless to me.
No, it doesn't. It gives them a DIFFERENT understanding, sure, but not nessecarily a better one. Ofcourse, you think its better but that is mainly because you cannot see the difference between belief and knowledge.
>>Everything becomes important to that individual, especially the things that involve charity. <<
Really? That is certainly not the attitiude of most christians.
>>But a life without God is meaningless, and hopeless. All the things you may accomplish in life amounts to nothing in the end. NOTHING!<<
Once again: helping others isn't nothing, a cure for cancer isn't nothing, and love isn't nothing. Life isn't meaningless TO ME, and life isn't HOPELESS to me. In the end, that is all that matters.
But what about you: striving for a "perfect" morality you know you canot attain because the only person who could was God himself. Seems pretty hopeless to me.