What is Free Will?

[Clete]

I could just as easily say that, because I was tired I took a cold shower and got hopped up on caffine. Is it your premise that the fact that you get tired means you don't have freedom of choice?

No that's not what he is saying. He's saying that you go to bed for some reason(s); that your action is not random. I understood him to be saying (until his last post) that whatever you decided to do was decided for specific reasons all of which had the agrigate result of your decision to go to bed. Now this last post of his has made it less clear what he's getting at but maybe we'll get some more clarity shortly.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Okay, time to try for some more common understanding building. When I speak of causality, or a causal model, I am taking about a process that leads to a class of outcomes, not a specific outcome. If I have a model that describes going to bed, it also has to describe not going to bed. Okay so far?

I suppose so. Please elaborate further.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[docrob57]

I suppose so. Please elaborate further.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Okay, so here is where you will disagree, but we have to work around this somehow. I am committed to getting us at least to the point of common perspective. Agreement on everything may be out of reach.

Here is a model which I would say depicts a free choice (formally, it is no different than any we have looked at)-

If X then Y
If ~X then ~Y

Free choice?

 

[Clete]

Okay, so here is where you will disagree, but we have to work around this somehow. I am committed to getting us at least to the point of common perspective. Agreement on everything may be out of reach.

Here is a model which I would say depicts a free choice (formally, it is no different than any we have looked at)-

If X then Y
If ~X then ~Y

Free choice?

Insufficient information to formulate a certain answer.

If X is a cause or set of causes and Y is a singular resulting action then I would say that the following is required for free will...

If X then Y or ~Y

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[docrob57]

Insufficient information to formulate a certain answer.

If X is a cause or set of causes and Y is a singular resulting action then I would say that the following is required for free will...

If X then Y or ~Y

Resting in Him,
Clete

The problem there is that if Y and ~Y are mutually exclusive, then X can't be a cause, so the statement is false. Or. more accurately, X has nothing to do with Y or ~Y.

 

[Clete]

The problem there is that if Y and ~Y are mutually exclusive, then X can't be a cause, so the statement is false. Or. more accurately, X has nothing to do with Y or ~Y.

In a mathematical equation maybe but life is not a mathematical equation. If our actions are like you suggest here, we do not have free will.
X=Y or ~Y is essentially identical to my original definition…

"Necessarily, for any human agent S, action A and time t, if S performs A freely at t, then the history of the world prior to t, the laws of nature, and the actions of any other agent (including God) prior to and at t are jointly compatible with S's refraining from performing A freely."​

Where (the history of the world prior to t, the laws of nature, and the actions of any other agent (including God) prior to and at t)=X,
X is compatible with A or ~A.

Get it?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[docrob57]

In a mathematical equation maybe but life is not a mathematical equation. If our actions are like you suggest here, we do not have free will.
X=Y or ~Y is essentially identical to my original definition…

"Necessarily, for any human agent S, action A and time t, if S performs A freely at t, then the history of the world prior to t, the laws of nature, and the actions of any other agent (including God) prior to and at t are jointly compatible with S's refraining from performing A freely."​

Where (the history of the world prior to t, the laws of nature, and the actions of any other agent (including God) prior to and at t)=X,
X is compatible with A or ~A.

Get it?

Resting in Him,
Clete

Then X is not a causal factor, and you seem to be drifting back to the idea that free will choices and behaviors are not caused.

Okay, let's try it this way. Give me an example of a free will choice or behavior.

 

[Clete]

Then X is not a causal factor, and you seem to be drifting back to the idea that free will choices and behaviors are not caused.

No, I'm not suggesting that they are uncaused, I'm only saying that the nature of causation isn't such that any cause must have only one result when our will is involved.
It is emperically clear that natural processes (most of them) are governed by strict causality. Chemesty, for example, works in completely predictable ways, or at least it would be completely predictable if all of the present conditions were known. This however cannot be the case for people who will be held accountable for their actions by God. If our actions are simply the result of a causal chain of events that we have no direct control over then we are not responsible for our actions any more than water is responsible for boiling.

Okay, let's try it this way. Give me an example of a free will choice or behavior.

Robbing a bank.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[docrob57]

No, I'm not suggesting that they are uncaused, I'm only saying that the nature of causation isn't such that any cause must have only one result when our will is involved.
It is emperically clear that natural processes (most of them) are governed by strict causality. Chemesty, for example, works in completely predictable ways, or at least it would be completely predictable if all of the present conditions were known. This however cannot be the case for people who will be held accountable for their actions by God. If our actions are simply the result of a causal chain of events that we have no direct control over then we are not responsible for our actions any more than water is responsible for boiling.


Robbing a bank.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Okay, put yourself in the place of a bank robber, why do you do it?

 

[Clete]

Okay, put yourself in the place of a bank robber, why do you do it?

Well, not to be too obtuse but, because I choose to.

Is that cheating? :chuckle:

 

[docrob57]

Well, not to be too obtuse but, because I choose to.

Is that cheating? :chuckle:

YEP!!!!

 

[Clete]

YEP!!!!

I was afraid you'd say that but actually that really is the answer to your question. There may be any number of motivations that lead to my decision to rob a bank but at the end of the day, regardless of why I chose to rob the bank, I could always have chosen not to rob it.

So it doesn't matter whether I did it because I was hungry or because I needed some drug money or simply because I though it would be a fun thing to do. If, when the moment came to decide whether to rob the bank or not, if it was simply the causes that resulted in my decision to rob the bank, aside from the force of my will, then it would be unjust for God to punish me for the robbery on judgment day.

Perhaps we could put it this way. All of the collective circumstances surrounding any action of mine are influencing factors but my will is the ultimate cause of the action.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[docrob57]

I was afraid you'd say that but actually that really is the answer to your question. There may be any number of motivations that lead to my decision to rob a bank but at the end of the day, regardless of why I chose to rob the bank, I could always have chosen not to rob it.

So it doesn't matter whether I did it because I was hungry or because I needed some drug money or simply because I though it would be a fun thing to do. If, when the moment came to decide whether to rob the bank or not, if it was simply the causes that resulted in my decision to rob the bank, aside from the force of my will, then it would be unjust for God to punish me for the robbery on judgement day.

Perhaps we could put it this way. All of the collective circumstances surounding any action of mine are influencing factors but my will is the ultimate cause of the action.

Resting in Him,
Clete

And the will is subject to no influence?

 

[Clete]

And the will is subject to no influence?

I think that this is like asking, "And causes are subject to no influence?". The will is itself a cause and it is, of course influenced by other preceeding causes but the nature of our will is not strictly "causative" in the sense that there is only one result for any particular set of causes.

I understand that it is a difficult thing to get one's mind around and prehaps it cannot be completely comprehended by the mind of man but never the less we can know that our actions must be free because we know that God is just and that He does not lie. When He says that evil people will be punished we can trust that it will not only happen but that it will be carried out in a just and holy manner worthy of God the Father. This would not be possible if those being punished hadn't freely chosen to do what they did by their own volitional will.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[docrob57]

I think that this is like asking, "And causes are subject to no influence?". The will is itself a cause and it is, of course influenced by other preceeding causes but the nature of our will is not strictly "causative" in the sense that there is only one result for any particular set of causes.

I understand that it is a difficult thing to get one's mind around and prehaps it cannot be completely comprehended by the mind of man but never the less we can know that our actions must be free because we know that God is just and that He does not lie. When He says that evil people will be punished we can trust that it will not only happen but that it will be carried out in a just and holy manner worthy of God the Father. This would not be possible if those being punished hadn't freely chosen to do what they did by their own volitional will.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Okay, if the will is a cause, how does it work?

Don't get mad (if possible), but I really think the reason that it is difficult to understand is that it doesn't make any sense. To say that a person can choose freely is not to specify the causal mechanisms behind the choice. The ability to choose freely is a state of being, not a cause.

 

[Clete]

Okay, if the will is a cause, how does it work?

I don't know. Is it necessary to know the answer to this question to accept the conclusion of sound reason? I don't think it is.

Don't get mad (if possible),

Are you suggesting that I have a real choice in the matter?

...but I really think the reason that it is difficult to understand is that it doesn't make any sense.

What doesn't make sense about it?

• If we are responsible for our actions, those actions must necessarily be freely chosen.
  
• We are responsible for our actions.
  
• Therefore our actions are freely chosen.

To say that a person can choose freely is not to specify the causal mechanisms behind the choice. The ability to choose freely is a state of being, not a cause.

Right! I don't disagree with this. I simply insist that the mechanism has to involve more than mere causalalities. I'm cetain that there is something spiritual involved and that I think it likely that this supernatural aspect of humanity is what allows us by some means to have a genuinely free will.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[docrob57]

I don't know. Is it necessary to know the answer to this question to accept the conclusion of sound reason? I don't think it is.


Are you suggesting that I have a real choice in the matter?


What doesn't make sense about it?

• If we are responsible for our actions, those actions must necessarily be freely chosen.
  
• We are responsible for our actions.
  
• Therefore our actions are freely chosen.

Right! I don't disagree with this. I simply insist that the mechanism has to involve more than mere causalalities. I'm cetain that there is something spiritual involved and that I think it likely that this supernatural aspect of humanity is what allows us by some means to have a genuinely free will.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Well I do believe that we have free will. That isn't the point. But I can't get to the point until we can agree what a free will choice is. Of course there are things spiritual involved. Things spiritual are a cause!

If you can accept that I am not trying to undermine what free will is, can you accept that whatever the cause may be, human actions and behaviors have causes?

 

[Clete]

I think my answer to your question is yes but let me ask a question of you to make sure.

According to your definition of what a free will choice is, can I do something simply and only because I want to?

 

[docrob57]

I think my answer to your question is yes but let me ask a question of you to make sure.

According to your definition of what a free will choice is, can I do something simply and only because I want to?

:bang: Yes, but the question of why you want to is really important. :bang:

I think we have to go back to causality for a minute. A cause of a choice or behavior does not have to be something externally imposed.

I eat raw oysters because I want to. Why do I want to? Because I like the way they taste and because I am from New Orleans where people do such things and I am used to it and because I can get them for 25 cents a piece on Wednsday nights at Stingray's, etc. All of these things are causes.

 

[Clete]

I don't mean to be so frustrating, please bear with me. It's slow going but I think we are still making some progress.

Let me ask another question.

Do you think that our choices are like proverbial dominoes where one dominoe (an event/cause) falls into another and that one in turn falls into the next and so on and the result is a domninoe (event/cause) called "our choice"?