Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Ask Knight (Archieved)

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
This is a sticky topic.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by poogle

    Ok, let me put forth a hypothetical situation...

    Lets say that I built a time machine before John Doe was born. With the help of the time machine and a cloaking device, I am able to travel into the future and document every choice that John Doe makes in his life. For this hypothetical situation lets assume that John Doe has free will when making his choices.

    After John Doe dies, I go back to the time before John Doe was born. I now know every choice that John Doe will make in his life. Will he have free will?

    Technically, by the definition of free will, John Doe will not have free will. He will be constrained not by my knowledge of what his choices will be, but by his own choices that he already made when I had traveled into the future to observe them.

    Back to reality...

    God exists outside of time as we know it, therefore, God can observe the choices that John Doe will make in his life. Because God exists outside of time, God will have the perfect exhaustive foreknowledge of John Doe's life before John Doe is even born.

    John Doe has free will. God has perfect exhaustive foreknowledge. Free will and foreknowledge are not incompatible with each other. John Doe is not constrained by God's foreknowledge. If anything John Doe would be constrained by his own choices. If you want to say that because John Doe is constrained by his own choices then yes, I agree he does not have free will. But it is not because of God knows what John Doe will do.
    This is based on the assumption that time is a thing or is the same as space/place. The 'eternal now' concept of God was influenced by pagan Plato and Philo through Augustine and Calvin. The Scriptural view is that God exists in an endless duration of time which is unidirectional. The future is not a line that God is above, seeing or experiencing all at once. The future is not there to observe and it is no deficiency for Him to not know or see it. If the future had already been recorded as a fact, then God could see it without causing it (Arminianian argument= foreknowledge; Calvinistic argument= predestination; Open Theism= future is open and unknowable in every detail).
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by poogle

      Correct, from a biblical perspective the virgin birth and the resurrection are not only logical they had to have happened the way they did. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and guess that you didn't see the "From a scientific perspective" part.
      Again... even from a scientific perspective none of what you mentioned is illogical (emphasis on illogical). God is SUPERnatural and therefore not bound by physical laws, that has nothing to do with logic.

      Something illogical would be like a four sided triangle.

      While the Bible does present God as SUPERnatural..... to my knowledge the Bible never presents God as SUPERlogical as in, NOT logical.
      Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
      TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by poogle

        I admit - THIS IS NOT LOGICAL FROM A SCIENTIFIC PERSPECTIVE, but neither is the virgin birth or the resurrection.
        I couldn't disagree more.

        Nothing about the virgin birth or the ressurection is illogical assuming God truly is SUPERnatural.

        We might classify these things as miraculous or amazing or divine but not illogical.
        Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
        TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

        Comment


        • Is it fair to say we in the flesh cannot know that of the spirit,only through the spirit?What i mean is,we must have the spirit of truth in us in order to understand spirital things.Without the spirit of truth not much makes sense..Is that fair to say?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by godrulz

            Issues of omniscience, foreknowledge, predestination are revelations of truth about God and creation found in Scripture. A cogent theology can and should be developed. Calvinism tends to relegate things that appear contradictory to the 'mystery or will of God". A better approach would be to interpret Scripture literally and bring in philosophical considerations if necessary. The science of modal logic, for example, helps shed light on these issues (possible worlds, etc.).

            It is initially difficult to see some of these issues due to exposure to one pre-conceived theology only. Once one wrestles with these issues and sees why foreknowledge of future free will moral choices and free will are mutually exclusive, the lights go on and seeming contradictions become clear and logical.

            Knight has seen the light (and it is frustrating when others cannot at the moment).
            I assume that you are referring to me when you state that "it is frustrating" when others can't see the light.

            I apologize for being frustrating but I am trying to learn here and don't intentionally mean to be.

            Comment


            • I meant we just wish we could communicate clearer so people can see the issue clearly. You are not personally frustrating.
              Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

              They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
              I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

              Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

              "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

              The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Knight

                Again... even from a scientific perspective none of what you mentioned is illogical (emphasis on illogical). God is SUPERnatural and therefore not bound by physical laws, that has nothing to do with logic.

                Something illogical would be like a four sided triangle.

                While the Bible does present God as SUPERnatural..... to my knowledge the Bible never presents God as SUPERlogical as in, NOT logical.
                As godrulz pointed out earlier it appears that my understanding of time is what is causing my (mis)understanding of God's foreknowledge and how it relates to free will.

                So I ask you this. Is my understanding of time and how it relates to God the cause of my (mis)understanding?

                To clarify what I thought about time. I thought that God exists outside of time and is not subject to it. God can see past, present and future.

                Am I wrong about God and time?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Knight

                  I couldn't disagree more.

                  Nothing about the virgin birth or the ressurection is illogical assuming God truly is SUPERnatural.

                  We might classify these things as miraculous or amazing or divine but not illogical.
                  Let me start out by saying that I AGREE with everything you wrote.

                  The point is not really necessary for this discussion and don't want to extend it further unless you are interested in doing so.

                  Comment


                  • Sorry Knight. I will get off your thread since you should be answering...but as confirmation...there are 4 main views of God and His relationship to time and eternity...I do believe an erroneous view of time and eternity leads to the wrong conclusions about foreknowledge and free will. The matter is worth searching out to make sure our ideas are based on Scripture and not Greek philosophical influences on Augustine.
                    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by godrulz

                      I meant we just wish we could communicate clearer so people can see the issue clearly. You are not personally frustrating.
                      I'm glad that I'm not personally frustrating to you though I do know that I don't always communicate clearly.

                      Comment


                      • Hey fellow mac lover...I have the original flatscreen iMac.
                        Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                        They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                        I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                        Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                        "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                        The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by godrulz

                          Hey fellow mac lover...I have the original flatscreen iMac.
                          Is this for Knight or for me? Not to hijack the thread further....

                          ... I too have the original flatscreen iMac.

                          To keep the thread on topic...

                          Knight, what was your first Mac and what do you use now?

                          Comment


                          • For poogle...does Knight use a Mac?
                            Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                            They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                            I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                            Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                            "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                            The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by godrulz

                              For poogle...does Knight use a Mac?
                              Well this IS the Ask Knight thread. Why are you asking me? You should Ask Knight!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by godrulz

                                The Trinity is a revelation of the nature of God that we would not come up with by reason alone, yet it is not unreasonable.
                                To the natural mind it is, in light of 1Cor. 2.

                                It is not an absurdity or logical contradiction
                                His ways are not our ways, His thoughts are not our thoughts.

                                The book of Revelation shows that God will bring much of the future to pass by His ability. Other verses show another motif that free will moral choices of specific moral agents are not known as a certainty until they are made (He knows them correctly as a possibility).
                                Simplify this. Does God know in advance, the free will decisions of humans, in light of what we already know in the Book of Revelation. Yes or no?

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X