ARCHIVE: Christians only PLEASE - abortion

[DaNiceGuy]

@Dee Dee
I do not pretend to know what is like, what it is you are feeling. All I can offer is prayer. My wife, too, had two abortions in her life. Both children were conceived through rape, once when she was 17 and the other when she was 19. Back then, she did not know what to do and of course her friends and the crowd she hung with told her to abort and so she aborted both babies. I did not know any of this until we almost got engaged. Neither one of us were Christians at the time so I was pretty upset, not at her because she was and still is my life, but at the men who raped her and put her in such a situation. Like I said earlier, this all happened before she became a Christian, re-born in the faith with Jesus Christ by her side. Five years ago, she, along with myself, became a Christian. For once she felt the forgiveness that only Jesus can provide us. Every once and a great while, she thinks about those babies but then she looks at our three children and is reminded just how much God has His hands in our lives. Her and I truly belive that if she wasn't raped, didn't have abortions, didn't try and run from her past by enrolling and dropping out of different colleges, that we would not be toghether, married happily, with three beautiful children as our gifts from God. It was God's plan from the beginning because her name was already written in the Book of Life and He knew, HE KNEW, what would take place in her life and how it would end. That is just downright awe-inspiring.

 

[Jefferson]

Originally posted by DaNiceGuy
It was God's plan from the beginning

It was God's plan that your wife was raped? Please tell me this is not what you are saying.

 

[DaNiceGuy]

@Jefferson
That is not at all what I am saying. I am saying that the end result was God's ultimate plan. He knew that she would come to Christ, he knew what would take place in her life. His plan was not for her to be raped, that was indeed Satan's work, but he knew that it would happen. God does not tempt man, He cannot do that. But he allows for it to happen even though He knows how it will turn out. Remember God's faithful servant, Job? God allowed Satan to work his acts of evil on Job to try and turn God's faithful servant from Him. He knew the pain and acts that Satan would inflict on Job. But He also knew that Job would not deny the Lord God. God knows what will happen. Can you deny that? If so, how and why? God knows every piece of hair on your head. He knows every grain of sand on this earth. He knows every atom that makes up every animate and inanimate object on this rock we live on. He knows everything that takes or will take place in our lives. So no, God did not mean for my wife to be raped. No, He did not mean for her to have abortions. No, He did not mean for her to run around with the "loose" crowd. Yes, He did mean for her and I to meet. Yes, He did mean for her to be born-again into the faith and become a true Christian. God did not mean, and did not want the bad stuff to happen, but He knew it would and He knew where my wife would end up in her life and her faith.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Hey Everyone... I want to make clear that my comments were not meant as finger-pointing to anyone who has been in that situation at all. It was more to stir up comments on exactly what our position should be, and I am advocating against favoring an exception for rape. Either abortion is murder or it is not. The circumstances of the conception are irrelevant to that question.

 

[agapathos]

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren
Either abortion is murder or it is not. The circumstances of the conception are irrelevant to that question.

That's right. I understand. Your post was clear. Not a guilt trip but a position statement.

The only case in which I might advocate terminating a pregnancy would be something like an ectopic implantation (such as one that was intrasalpingial). Even in that case, however, I would attempt to salvage the child for implantation in a surrogate host.

How do you feel about that, Dee Dee?

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

In cases where the life of the mother is genuinely at stake, which is what I think is the case in your scenario, then I would agree with you. All attempts should be made to save both, but if that is not possible, we cannot demand that the mother sacrifice her life for the life of her child, especially when in most of those cases, carrying a pregnancy to term which result in the death of both.

Thank you for saying that my post was clear. I want to be very clear that I am speaking of developing a consistent Christian worldview on this issue now and recognizing our errors and sins of the past to give them up to Christ.

I really began my reconciliation of what I had done when I was asked to give a talk on leadership to a group of women at a very intense spiritual retreat. I spoke about my two abortions and how I am not a childless woman, but in summation of that point I told these women this.... "God can use broken people as His leaders.... very often that is exactly what He is looking for." Our brokenness in whatever area can be used for His greater glory.

 

[agapathos]

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren
Our brokenness in whatever area can be used for His greater glory.

Amen, Brother.

(Sister? Ahem. God has no daughters, only sons.)

 

[efta777]

In cases where the life of the mother is genuinely at stake, which is what I think is the case in your scenario, then I would agree with you. All attempts should be made to save both, but if that is not possible, we cannot demand that the mother sacrifice her life for the life of her child, especially when in most of those cases, carrying a pregnancy to term which result in the death of both.

I think our mistake here is when we start to call this abortion. The word abortion has a negative stigma attached to it, and rightfully so, but if an unborn child happens to die from an attempt to save a mother's life, it is a tragedy, not abortion. We don't say that murder is okay when it's done by a doctor who's trying to save that person's life, because it's not murder, it's a casualty. So in short- abortion is NEVER right. This is the stance we should take.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

The word abortion has a negative stigma attached to it, and rightfully so, but if an unborn child happens to die from an attempt to save a mother's life, it is a tragedy, not abortion.

Not to be disagreeable, but I would disagree in a sense. I don't believe in semantical word games, but prefer blunt truth. The cases I was referring to where not cases where the baby happens to die in an attempt to save the life of the mother, but those cases where the foreknown and inevitable result is that the baby will in fact die in order to save the life of the mother. That is a tragedy, but it is also an abortion. Cloaking realities in niceties does not do bring light to an issue. However, I do believe that such cases as these are statistically rare, and are usually brought up to muddy the waters, as is the issue about rape or incest.

 

[agapathos]

Originally posted by efta777


I think our mistake here is when we start to call this abortion.

No, your mistake here is to not call this abortion. Abortion is the name given to the willful termination of a pregnancy--regardless of the reason.

Abortions fall into four broad classes: therapeutic, prophylactic, spontaneous and elective. Spontaneous abortions are better known as miscarriages; prophylactic abortions are undertaken when a child is so badly deformed (e.g., ancephalic, neural-tube anomalies, etc.) that no "human" life is deemed present; therapeutic abortions are undertaken to preserve the life of the mother; elective abortions are completely preventable procedures that are undertaken at the behest of the patient, her family, or the court.

Only elective abortions are pertinent to any discussions relating to the legality of willfully destroying incumbent human life. All other forms are either natural processes (e.g., spontaneous) or completely defensible medical procedures (e.g., prophylactic; therapeutic). Termination of an ectopic pregnancy falls under the rubric of therapeutic abortion. In the specific case of an intrasalpingial implantation, the fertilized ovum attaches itself to the interior wall of the Fallopian tube, where it has neither room to grow nor true endometrium to properly develop a placenta. Inevitably, in such cases, the blastocyst will form and may proceed to the embryonic stage of development before the lack of placental support spontaneously terminates the pregnancy or its gradual increase in size causes the woman's salpinx (Fallopian tube) to rupture and possibly kill both her and her baby.

The determination that a pregnancy is problematic and the decision to terminate it properly belong to a woman and her physician. As a father of two children who succumbed to spontaneous abortion (i.e., miscarriage), I believe that no one values the lives of infants more than I do. Certainly, I would "go the extra mile" to save the life of my child if at all possible. However, considering that we have other (living) children to raise--not to mention a viable relationship as friends, lovers and spouses--as well, I'd be hard pressed to justify risking my wife's death in order to sustain a pregnancy that's iffy at best to begin with.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

I don't disagree Sheepdog, but again, I am speaking more in principle here to get to the root, and then it can be applied to specific cases. An analogy may be helpful. I am completely in favor of the death penalty, however, I am not too enchanted with the way the death penality is administered in our country. That being said, I say fix the administration, not throw out the whole concept.

 

[agapathos]

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren
I am not too enchanted with the way the death penality is administered in our country.

That 'country', I suppose, being somewhere in 'YxBoom's spacious head'?

 

[efta777]

No, your mistake here is to not call this abortion. Abortion is the name given to the willful termination of a pregnancy--regardless of the reason.

I'm not talking about willful termination. I'm talking about when the death of the baby is an unintentional side effect of saving the mother's life. From what I understand though from researching the issue a few years back, is that there are VERY few cases if any of the child having to be willfully aborted to save the mother's life. From what I understand it just doesn't happen.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

That 'country', I suppose, being somewhere in 'YxBoom's spacious head'?

Exactly. There is a whole country in here. I told you it was large.

 

[agapathos]

Originally posted by efta777
From what I understand it just doesn't happen.

Actually, efta, it (speaking strictly of intrasalpingial implantation) happens all the time. Approximately 2% of all pregnancies are ectopic, and 97% of these are intrasalpingial. Approximately 91% of intrasalpingial pregnancies are "treated" with an injection of Methotrexate (a common abortifacient) which "causes the conception material to be dissolved and reabsorbed". They never make the news because (I suppose) guys like Jefferson just don't have a lot of photographs of ectopically-situated 1st-trimester embryos being dissolved in this fashion.

In short: it is murder; it is commonplace; it is almost never elective; it is almost never desired; it is a tragedy but less of one than having your wife/mother die on the table because it wasn't done.

 

[agapathos]

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren
Exactly. There is a whole country in here. I told you it was large.

LOL

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

They never make the news because (I suppose) guys like Jefferson just don't have a lot of photographs of ectopically-situated 1st-trimester embryos being dissolved in this fashion.

That was a completely unfair comment.

 

[agapathos]

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren
That was a completely unfair comment.

It wasn't intended hatefully. Why do you think it unfair?

My intent merely was to state that--for whatever reason--abortion abolition activists (Jefferson strikes me as one) don't seem to target these sorts of abortions.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

The response to that is self-evident. I don't really think you need me to explain it to you. Jefferson, and I, don't disagree with those types of abortions. Do you expect us to target something that we don't have an issue with?? That is simply a red herring (classic bait and switch technique) and completely unfair on other grounds even outside this brief response. Prolife advocates, such as myself, and I would say Jefferson speak out against RU486 being considered in this country and we don't have any pictures of those babies either.

 

[agapathos]

"Bait and Switch"? What are you talking about, Dee Dee? I'm as prolife as you are!

(No, hold on...I've got to edit that...)

Actually, I'm MORE prolife than you are: not only am I against killing the unborn, I'm against killing anybody! I'm anti-death penalty too!