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Common views of God and time.

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  • #76
    Originally posted by tetelestai View Post
    Biblical eschatology is pretty clear. The rapture, tribulation, millennium, Great White Throne Judgment, etc.

    It is the open theist who makes God the puppet master. On one hand the open theist believes God has disclosed eschatology to us, and that we have free will. But then the open theist believes God has to pull billions of strings every day to make sure everything works out the way He said it would. What happens to free will during this string pulling process?

    Also, the open theist believes God gets frustrated, mad, hurt, jealous, and angry, etc during the string pulling, yet somehow the open theist still is confident that God will not change His mind about the open theist’s guaranteed eternal life.

    The reason we are able to have Biblical eschatology is because God is outside of time. God already knows what happened, right down to how many hairs on the head of the last person to die in the battle of Armageddon.

    How can you guys be so sure about your eternal security if you believe God changes His mind, repents, gets angry, and is filled with hate? What if He changes His mind about your salvation and eternal security?

    This is not a fair representation of OVT or their understanding of prophecy/eschatology (Revelation is more general than you think...it does not matter how many hairs on the Antichrist's chin...hairs on our head is present vs future knowledge).

    TOL OVT/Plot do support OSAS. In reality, most prominent OVTs like Sanders argue against it based on free will theism and OVT principles. Even if OSAS is true, we can take God at His Word because of His faithfulness. God is not fickle and only changes His mind in response to changing contingencies and consistent with His character (righteousness, etc.).

    God is not emotionally unstable nor does He lack ability. This does not mean He is all-controlling, absolutely impassible/immutable.

    It is too early to reject OVT because your view of it is superficial and inaccurate.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by ddevonb View Post
      If you believe that ... why does God not go back in time and fix things?

      Because it's not possible.
      I agree that the past is fixed and that God cannot change it. The future is also not a place or thing to know or visit, but God and man create the future. Only the present is real.
      Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

      They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
      I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

      Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

      "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

      The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by tetelestai View Post
        Anthropopathism
        No. What truth about God does it convey if it is only figurative? Metaphors or anthro. must convey something about God. How else could God say that He now knows something other than what He said (how would God communicate the opposite? He could not...even if you do not believe the face value statement, there must be a way for God to communicate both possibilities).
        Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

        They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
        I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

        Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

        "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

        The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by tetelestai View Post
          (Matt 11:23) And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

          In this verse we see Jesus saying what would have happened had different choices been made by men.

          Now, I believe God’s intelligence is such that He could take any event in all of creation at any moment in the history of the universe, change it in one of an infinite number of ways, and then tell you exactly what would happen differently because of the change. Without any strain He could carry out all the intricate ramifications of that one change throughout history to the end of time and beyond time into eternity. He has all the possibilities and the one actuality clearly focused in His Mind at all times. His genius is endlessly vast; “His Understanding is infinite.”(Psalms 147:4-5)

          Not only does God know in complete detail what will happen, but He also knows what would have happened had He decided to adopt some course of action other than the one He chose (see above verse). If the “one indivisible system of things” were different in even one detail, if ever the course of one single atomic particle were different, the entire system would be changed. One variation would lead to another and another and another in a vast, intertwining system of cause and effect.

          God knows the future as clearly as the past. His knowledge is not subject to development; He never needs to learn anything because He already knows everything. (Isa 44:6-8)

          The only way all this is possible is for God to be "outside" of time.
          well stated!

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by tetelestai View Post
            Then how do you know you have eternal security?

            How do you know you will go to Heaven when you die?

            How do you know that Jesus will even come back?
            God's Word and His character ensure He is faithful/trustworthy, not fickle. When God changes His mind in Scripture from an OVT perspective, it is in order to remain righteous and a response to changing contingencies. It is not an unstable, capricious, quirky thing (arbitrary). God would be unable to show mercy when people repent if He could not change His mind. Hezekiah would not have lived another 15 years in your view. Prayer is meaningless in a fatalistic system, etc.
            Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

            They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
            I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

            Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

            "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

            The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by tetelestai View Post
              How does He do this without violating free will?
              He is creative and can skin a cat in more than one way. He can declare that the Messiah will come, die, rise, and come again because this is under His control and independent of men's free will.

              As well, not all prophecy is predictive, but declarative or illustrative.
              Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

              They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
              I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

              Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

              "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

              The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by tetelestai View Post
                Why don’t you make your point as to how prophecy proves open theism is not false.
                We did. It seems you missed it - big surprise there. I'll make it even simpler than ever for you.

                If God promises a blessing, and His people turn from Him, and He gives them what He promised, this would be evidence against the God of the Bible, and a violation of His character.

                If God promises destruction to a people and they repent (as they did in Ninevah) and He destroys them as promised... this would be evidence against the God of the Bible, and would be a violation of His character.
                Fulfilled prophecy is evidence that the God of the Bible is real.

                Unfulfilled prophecy is evidence that our God is righteous!

                And it's a very good thing, indeed something to thank God for, that those prophecies did not come about as stated. It is to His greater glory that He didn't do what He said He would do!

                So join us in rejoicing in that!

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by The Graphite View Post
                  He should read the verse again. Peter doesn't admonish us to "pay attention to prophecies." He admonishes his congregations to "heed" them. That is, to obey them! Which means the purpose of the prophecy is to change human behavior.
                  From Merriam Webster:

                  Main Entry: 1heed
                  Pronunciation: \ˈhēd\
                  Function: verb
                  Etymology: Middle English, from Old English hēdan; akin to Old High German huota guard, Old English hōd hood
                  Date: before 12th century
                  intransitive verb
                  : to pay attention
                  transitive verb
                  : to give consideration or attention to : mind <heed what he says> <heed the call>
                  (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by tetelestai View Post
                    The only way all this is possible is for God to be "outside" of time.
                    Something that exists "outside of time" necessarily experiences absolutely no change, whatsoever. If there were any change, it would demonstrate a before and after, and therefore would have occured in time.

                    If God experiences absolutely no change, then He is an inanimate object.

                    I worship the Living God, who is creative, who makes promises, who changes His mind and tells us so. He is living, personal, relational, loving and good. Relationship is fundamental to His character.

                    But you would have us believe that from His perspective, we are both saved and unsaved, that Christ is unborn, born, alive, dying on the cross, dead, and resurrected all simultaneously from His point of view.

                    He died once. He is alive.

                    Christ became flesh. He wasn't always flesh.

                    He became sin. He wasn't always sin. But, He became sin, and He is sin no longer. Not only does God change, but He changes in some radical ways. At the same time, His character does not change, and He says so.

                    You would have us believe that God cannot create a new song, or invent a new species. Indeed, how could He ever have created in the first place? If you claim that from God's perspective there has always been a Creation, and He has always been a creator, you are straying into the realm of Process Theology, inferring that God cannot be God without a Creation. Your view infers that there is necessarily a Creation if there is a Creator, which means that the Creator is dependent upon the Creation.

                    You can't say that God could have not created.... because He has never known a time when there was no Creation or that He was not a Creator -- from His perspective, both Creator and Creation co-exist inherently and necessarily.

                    The Open View holds that God didn't have to create. He was free to create, and is still free to create, even today. He could think of and create a new thing at any time. He is not dependent upon Creation, but rather He is sovereign over it.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by The Graphite View Post
                      If God promises a blessing, and His people turn from Him, and He gives them what He promised, this would be evidence against the God of the Bible, and a violation of His character.
                      Lets look at your statement:

                      If God promises a blessing
                      God promised a Messiah

                      and His people turn from Him
                      The Jews turned from God

                      and He gives them what He promised
                      God sent His only Son

                      this would be evidence against the God of the Bible, and a violation of His character
                      ??????
                      (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by The Graphite View Post
                        If God experiences absolutely no change, then He is an inanimate object.
                        No, that would make God an immutable and impassable God, not an inanimate object.
                        (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by tetelestai View Post
                          From Merriam Webster:

                          Main Entry: 1heed
                          Pronunciation: \ˈhēd\
                          Function: verb
                          Etymology: Middle English, from Old English hēdan; akin to Old High German huota guard, Old English hōd hood
                          Date: before 12th century
                          intransitive verb
                          : to pay attention
                          transitive verb
                          : to give consideration or attention to : mind <heed what he says> <heed the call>
                          "The man did not heed my warning."

                          The word "heed" clearly also carries the connotation of doing what was suggested, and this is necessary so, and obvious to anyone but you.

                          If you warn me, and I pay close attention to every word of your warning, I understand it, and I willfully reject it and act contrary to it... would you say I heeded your warning? Of course not. That would be a ridiculous conclusion. It carries the meaning of responding in accordance to the warning, or in the above cases, the prophecy.

                          God prophecies He will destroy them if they don't repent. They hear Him, they understand Him, and they reject His will. Thus, they did NOT heed His prophecy.

                          Peter would not agree that God wants people to only pay attention to His prophecies but doesn't really care if they act in accordance with them.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Knight, I know that you are busy enough with the prophesy question - and it is a fascinating debate - but could you take a few moments on this?

                            Thanks

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by tetelestai View Post
                              Lets look at your statement:

                              God promised a Messiah

                              The Jews turned from God

                              God sent His only Son

                              ??????
                              And of course you choose as your example the single most unconditional prophecy in the entire Bible!

                              God promises to destroy Ninevah. They repent. He still destroys them.

                              That is not the God of the Bible.

                              God promises to drive all of the 'Ites from the Promised Land. Isreal rejects God's will. He still blesses them anyway.

                              That is not the God of the Bible.

                              You are willfully refusing to understand the most simple things we are saying to you in this thread, and you know it. Your attitude is childish at best.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
                                So all the historical discussion and exegesis by so many great theologians of the past and many in the present is easily waved off?

                                The "pay off" is a basic view that whatever the essence of God is, it is one that is of a maximum God in all that He is. The atemporality of God is intuitively known outside of special revelation and must be rationalized away for a person to assume God is not in time.

                                What is the compelling reason to deny it is the better question.
                                It is possible that people who have never been to Bible college or seminary but approach scripture by coming to him "as a child" and simply believing what the scripture says gain more understanding than the great theologians. It is further possible that those great theologians were not all that great!

                                Comment

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