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  • Originally posted by Lon View Post
    Open theist question:
    Gen 22:12 And He said, Do not lay your hand on the lad, nor do anything to him. For now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only one, from Me.

    If God doesn't know our minds, how can He know if we are a new creation or not? How could He know if we won't rebel in heaven, like the angels did or not? (Knight's angels thread had me thinking which brought this passage to mind) How could He know if there will be no more sorrow in heaven or not?
    If we have opened our hearts to Him then He does know.
    sigpic

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    • Originally posted by Lon View Post
      Open theist question:
      Gen 22:12 And He said, Do not lay your hand on the lad, nor do anything to him. For now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only one, from Me.

      If God doesn't know our minds, how can He know if we are a new creation or not?
      Why would you think God does not know our minds?

      Jeremiah 17:10
      10 I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.


      Originally posted by Lon View Post
      How could He know if we won't rebel in heaven, like the angels did or not? (Knight's angels thread had me thinking which brought this passage to mind)
      God sees whether we are obedient in this life, so He will know whether we will continue to be obedient.

      Romans 6:16
      16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


      Originally posted by Lon View Post
      How could He know if there will be no more sorrow in heaven or not?
      You keep thinking the answer lies in omniscience, when it really lies in omnipotence.

      Numbers 11:23
      23 And the Lord said unto Moses, Is the Lord'S hand waxed short? thou shalt see now whether my word shall come to pass unto thee or not.

      Learn to read what is written.

      _____
      The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
      ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

      Comment


      • Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
        You keep thinking the answer lies in omniscience, when it really lies in omnipotence.
        That, right there, says it all.
        sigpic

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        • Originally posted by [B
          genuineoriginal[/B]] You keep thinking the answer lies in omniscience, when it really lies in omnipotence.

          Originally posted by Lighthouse View Post
          That, right there, says it all.
          Not well thought out, you two. First of all, OV denies omnipotence, even if neither of you do.
          2nd, omnipotence requires omniscience in order to work and is why the OV denies it. If you give in on one omni- you give in to them all (not that, that would bother me in the least).
          My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
          Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
          Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
          Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
          No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
          Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

          ? Yep

          Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

          ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

          Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Lon View Post
            Not well thought out, you two. First of all, OV denies omnipotence, even if neither of you do.
            Open Theism does not deny omnipotence. It can be found in the Hebrew, Greek, and Latin Bibles.
            שַׁדַּי Shadday
            I.almighty, most powerful
            παντοκράτωρ pantokratōr
            III.almighty
            omnipotens
            1.omnipotent, all-powerful, almighty
            Originally posted by Lon View Post
            2nd, omnipotence requires omniscience in order to work
            Apparantly you don't know what omnipotence is.
            Omnipotence
            The word "Omnipotence" derives from the Latin term "Omni Potens", meaning "All-Powerful" instead of "Infinite Power" implied by its English counterpart. The term could be applied to both deities and Roman Emperors. Being the one with "All the power", it was not uncommon for nobles to attempt to prove their Emperor's "Omni Potens" to the people, by demonstrating his effectiveness at leading the Empire.[3]

            His Omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible, not to do the intrinsically impossible. You may attribute miracles to him, but not nonsense. This is no limit to his power. If you choose to say 'God can give a creature free will and at the same time withhold free will from it,' you have not succeeded in saying anything about God: meaningless combinations of words do not suddenly acquire meaning simply because we prefix to them the two other words 'God can.'... It is no more possible for God than for the weakest of his creatures to carry out both of two mutually exclusive alternatives; not because his power meets an obstacle, but because nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God.

            — C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain 18


            Originally posted by Lon View Post
            If you give in on one omni- you give in to them all (not that, that would bother me in the least).

            You obviously don't know much about יְהֹוָה אֵל שַׁדַּי


            Numbers 11:23
            23 And the Lord said unto Moses, Is the Lord'S hand waxed short? thou shalt see now whether my word shall come to pass unto thee or not.



            Isaiah 46:11
            Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.


            God has the ability to accomplish everything He promises.
            That is what makes Him Almighty.

            God is not an impotent Cassandra with the power of foresight while being unable to do anything about what He sees.
            Learn to read what is written.

            _____
            The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
            ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Lon View Post
              Not well thought out, you two. First of all, OV denies omnipotence, even if neither of you do.
              No it doesn't, you oblivious twip.

              2nd, omnipotence requires omniscience in order to work and is why the OV denies it. If you give in on one omni- you give in to them all (not that, that would bother me in the least).
              Prove that omnipotence requires omniscience by your definition.

              Apparently you don't think God is powerful enough to move without knowing how every little thing will go. That's not very omnipotent.
              sigpic

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Lon View Post
                omnipotence requires omniscience in order to work
                Hmmm.... where on earth do you get that?
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                • Originally posted by Lon View Post
                  First of all, OV denies omnipotence
                  That's also not true.

                  Come on brother... you have been here a long time, you should know the arguments better by now.
                  Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
                  TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

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                  • Originally posted by Knight View Post
                    That's also not true.

                    Come on brother... you have been here a long time, you should know the arguments better by now.
                    You'd think.

                    It's almost like Calvinism causes worse brain damage than Cannabis Sativa.
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                    Comment


                    • I understand you both getting mad that anyone would dare question but could we simply discuss without the absurd? Thanks.

                      Read up a bit and come back (Battle Royale)?

                      See:
                      Originally posted by Dr. Lamerson
                      Bob Fails to Realize that the Attributes of God Must Form a “Package” and Cannot Be Separated
                      And what follows.


                      You two aren't answering my question btw, just changing the goal post (away from the question) and getting a bit defensive.

                      My question was how God could know Abraham's mind when he didn't actually kill his son. How could God have possibly known if Abraham would have followed through according to Open View? To me, anything short of killing his son would have left me guessing unless God knew minds and hearts of man.
                      My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                      Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                      Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                      Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                      No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                      Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                      ? Yep

                      Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                      ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                      Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Knight View Post
                        That's also not true.

                        Come on brother... you have been here a long time, you should know the arguments better by now.
                        Okay, this is a bit of a Battle Royale 10 commercial, but it's worth spotlighting and reading again. It was definitive for some of this contention and it is important that you all understand my questions are coming from things both Enyart and Lamerson stated (maybe I should have started this in the discussion thread)
                        My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                        Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                        Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                        Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                        No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                        Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                        ? Yep

                        Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                        ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                        Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Lon View Post
                          I understand you both getting mad that anyone would dare question but could we simply discuss without the absurd? Thanks.
                          Absurd?? What did I say that was absurd?

                          My question was how God could know Abraham's mind when he didn't actually kill his son. How could God have possibly known if Abraham would have followed through according to Open View? To me, anything short of killing his son would have left me guessing unless God knew minds and hearts of man.
                          God DOES know the hearts and minds of men. He also knows our every intention. He also knows moment by moment how our intentions are changing (if they are changing).

                          God knows all of that.

                          God knows.... everything knowable. After all.... He is omniscient.
                          Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
                          TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Lon View Post
                            I understand you both getting mad that anyone would dare question but could we simply discuss without the absurd? Thanks.

                            Read up a bit and come back (Battle Royale)?

                            See:

                            And what follows.


                            You two aren't answering my question btw, just changing the goal post (away from the question) and getting a bit defensive.

                            My question was how God could know Abraham's mind when he didn't actually kill his son. How could God have possibly known if Abraham would have followed through according to Open View? To me, anything short of killing his son would have left me guessing unless God knew minds and hearts of man.
                            And this is why you're not God.

                            Part of the reason God did not know is because Abraham did not know; not until he brought the knife down.
                            sigpic

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                            • Originally posted by Knight View Post
                              Absurd?? What did I say that was absurd?
                              He's gone mad. All logic, reason and rationale are absurd to him.
                              sigpic

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Knight View Post
                                Absurd?? What did I say that was absurd?

                                God DOES know the hearts and minds of men. He also knows our every intention. He also knows moment by moment how our intentions are changing (if they are changing).

                                God knows all of that.

                                God knows.... everything knowable. After all.... He is omniscient.
                                Sorry, I took awhile before posting, I meant Ge and Lh. My apologies, you can imagine my surprise when I saw about 5 posts between post and submit
                                My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                                Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                                Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                                Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                                No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                                Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                                ? Yep

                                Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                                ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                                Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                                Comment

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