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  • #31
    Okay, lunchtime. Sandwich in one hand and keyboard in the other...

    Saved by grace through faith... yep that's the deal at this present time; our faith being accounted to us as righteousness, but I suggest that this does not exempt us from judgment. Many claim the name of Christ who shall be judged and found wanting. No? If this be the case then it would appear that we who seek this gift of life eternal are responsible to manifest our faith through this gift of God that is our mortal life. Remember the unprofitable servant Jesus spoke of?
    FAITH IS AS FAITH DOES---- Forest Gump?
    http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10576

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    • #32
      Absolutely I agree no change of nature no salvation.

      But it is not our works that saves us they are just the produce of our salvation. If we are born again we have already been judged at the cross so we will not be condemned. "There is therefore no condemnation...". We will still be judged according to we have done rewards ect but not as to our eternal destiny.
      "He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire." - Hebrews 1:7

      Comment


      • #33
        "Absolutely I agree no change of nature no salvation.

        But it is not our works that saves us they are just the produce of our salvation. If we are born again we have already been judged at the cross so we will not be condemned. "There is therefore no condemnation...". We will still be judged according to we have done rewards ect but not as to our eternal destiny."

        Judged at the cross... interesting notion, That would make the "white throne judgment" more like the "white throne sentencing".

        "If we are born again..." I would suggest to you it should be WHEN we are born again. So the question is when are we born again? The answer...when we are born again or ressurected as it were; some at Christ's return some a 1000 years later if I am understanding aright what I am reading. (1Cor 5:1-5, Rom 8:22-25, 2Tim 4: 6-8 and Heb 3:6 are a good start towards understanding the timing of our salvation I think) remember flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom.

        Rewards... this is the second time you have mentioned this. Please explain about "rewards". Some scripture would be nice as well.
        FAITH IS AS FAITH DOES---- Forest Gump?
        http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10576

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Mateo
          LightSon,

          I do not believe God turned His back on His Son at the cross. This notion gained some currency in several of the patented answer factories (seminaries, cemetaries, whatever) by those who either could not or would not make the connection between what Jesus uttered on the cross and the first line of Psalm 22. Jesus was pointing any and all to the Psalm which spoke of the cross so long before He was ever nailed to it. He was not lamenting the absense of His omnipresent Father or His gaze.

          Concerning the notion that God cannot look upon sin and turned His back on His Son because of it, I leave you with the following verses:

          Psa 90:8 Thou hast set our iniquities before thee, our secret sins in the light of thy countenance.

          Prov 15:3 The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.

          John 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
          My $.02

          Jesus / God / was expressing His absolute solidarity with
          humanity, and the suffering that humanity endures.

          Hence the crede, "wholly human and wholly divine."

          God does not turn His back on us, but nonetheless sometimes
          we feel very alone. Jesus endures our pain, even our
          aloneness, with us, and in His demonstrating that, we are
          assured that we are not alone.

          Dave Miller
          1 John 4:7-8 "Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love."

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Dave Miller
            My $.02

            Jesus / God / was expressing His absolute solidarity with
            humanity, and the suffering that humanity endures.

            Hence the crede, "wholly human and wholly divine."

            God does not turn His back on us, but nonetheless sometimes
            we feel very alone. Jesus endures our pain, even our
            aloneness, with us, and in His demonstrating that, we are
            assured that we are not alone.

            Dave Miller
            Dave,
            Considering Jesus rhetorical question, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

            Did God the Father forsake Jesus?

            Or was Jesus just feeling forsaken?

            This issue seems to be shouded in semantics. The notion of God "turning His back," seems to be in contention. I take this particular phrase as a metaphor for "forsaking sin" and since Jesus bore our sins, God needed to forsake the sin bearer as a part of the process.
            That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world.
            Philippians 2:15

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by LightSon
              Dave,
              Considering Jesus rhetorical question, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

              Did God the Father forsake Jesus?

              Or was Jesus just feeling forsaken?

              This issue seems to be shouded in semantics. The notion of God "turning His back," seems to be in contention. I take this particular phrase as a metaphor for "forsaking sin" and since Jesus bore our sins, God needed to forsake the sin bearer as a part of the process.
              Hi Lightson.

              I understand that take on it. Taking our two viewpoints, the
              question is, was God/Jesus forsaking sin, or was Jesus/God
              taking the part of those who are forsaken?

              Its an extension of the classic debate, was Jesus fully human
              or fully divine?

              From your viewpoint, it was necessary for God to forsake sin, as God and sin are incompatible. From my viewpoint, it was
              necessary for Jesus to take on the role of sin, both as a
              sacrifice on behalf of humanity, but also as an expression of
              love for and solidarity with humanity.

              Its really quite amazing to ponder. On a deep, deep human
              level, saying "I know what you're going through," doesn't
              give much comfort, but saying "I too have suffered as you do,"
              or " I am suffering with
              means all the difference in the world. The bond of suffering is
              unique in the human experience. Being a trach patient, when
              I encounter another trach patient, or someone who has
              had a tracheostomy, there is a deep deep bond there
              that no one else can share. The bond of suffering.

              Saying that Jesus took on sin has some meaning at some level,
              but saying that Jesus became wholly, wholly human, suffering
              and all, adds a whole other dimension to God in the Flesh.

              Take care,

              Dave
              1 John 4:7-8 "Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love."

              Comment


              • #37
                Not to be unnecessarily contentious, but, I can't recall seeing the term Jesus/God any where in my Bible. Which one do you use?
                FAITH IS AS FAITH DOES---- Forest Gump?
                http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10576

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Mateo
                  Not to be unnecessarily contentious, but, I can't recall seeing the term Jesus/God any where in my Bible. Which one do you use?
                  Mateo,
                  Is Jesus God?

                  I thought you were trinitarian. Am I mistaken about that?
                  That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world.
                  Philippians 2:15

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    "Mateo,
                    Is Jesus God?"


                    No, He is the Son of God.


                    "I thought you were trinitarian. Am I mistaken about that?"


                    Yes. I reject any and every "ian", "ism" and "ist" created by and known to man.

                    BTW. My statement of faith is the Bible.




                    FAITH IS AS FAITH DOES---- Forest Gump?
                    http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10576

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Mateo
                      Not to be unnecessarily contentious, but, I can't recall seeing the term Jesus/God any where in my Bible. Which one do you use?
                      Emmanuel, God with us.

                      God in the flesh. Immanent God.

                      Go ahead and be contentious, you refine my thoughts,
                      I refine yours, challenge helps us grow in understanding.

                      Dave
                      1 John 4:7-8 "Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love."

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Otay Mr. Dave.

                        As I stated earlier, being a practicing nonismatist, I am disinclined to embrace any of the "isms" which have grown up around the word of God. I am one of those most unique of creatures; someone who has come to a belief in the veracity of the word of God strictly by reading it and believing it, outside of the context of denominationalism. Said another way. I just picked the book up, read it, and believed it; and I had no other direction but the "spirit of truth" as John called it.

                        One of the interesting aspects of my spiritual upbringing is that I can almost always identify someone who has come to their belief the same way I did. We invariably agree about what it says. Contention arises mostly when I engage those who have come to believe in the word of God in the denominational context.

                        After my "three years in the desert", as it were, I began to
                        review some of the thoughts of others concerning the faith
                        I had come to embrace. One interesting book I came across was "The Two Babylons" by a Mr. Hyslop. He was able to document, to my satisfaction, the evolution of the notion of a God and his female consort giving birth to said god again after his death, from Nimrod, his wife and son, to Osiris, Isis, and Simiramus, to the grecian Gods and later to Jesus, Mary and Joseph by the hand of Gnotics who later brought it to be codified into the Catholic cannon.

                        To shoehorn the story of Jesus' incarnation on this planet into this litany of foolishness Mary had to become "the mother of God" in order for "God" to die and be reborn. There are many instances in scripture where Jesus makes it very clear that He and His father are different and that he is the subordinate.

                        A Messianic Jew friend of mine who posts to this forum once said, "the Protestants didn't protest enough". I haven't come up with a better way to say it but what I used to say was, "although Mr. Luther did a great service in what he did at the end of the day he was still a Catholic and brought forward into his theology several Catholic innovations one of which was the notion that Jesus was God".

                        If you get the chance, look at a panoramic view of the vatican. You will see what the Bible refers to as a "grove" in the courtyard before it. It is what we now call an obelesk covered with Egyptian verbage honoring "Ra". When you assertain the reason for this you will be well on your way to understanding the origins of the Jesus is God notion.

                        Happy Hunting,

                        Mateo
                        FAITH IS AS FAITH DOES---- Forest Gump?
                        http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10576

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                        • #42
                          Responded to in the Immanent God thread, which was previously
                          requested by others as well.

                          take care,

                          Dave
                          1 John 4:7-8 "Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love."

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            "Responded to in the Immanent God thread, which was previously
                            requested by others as well.

                            take care,

                            Dave"



                            Well, gee..... that was edifying.
                            FAITH IS AS FAITH DOES---- Forest Gump?
                            http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10576

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Mateo
                              Judged at the cross... interesting notion, That would make the "white throne judgment" more like the "white throne sentencing".
                              You are correct. All that show up at the White Throne Judgment are wicked.

                              There is no place in the Bible that speaks of a final judgment, where souls are lined up, some gaining access to Heaven, while others condemned to Hell.

                              The righteous are judged at the Bema Seat of Christ. Bema means mercy.

                              Regards
                              In case of Rapture, I'll be on Eternity Leave.

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                              • #45
                                Psssst...Hey Quasar... your fly is open.

                                14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
                                15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

                                Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
                                15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be A (thats singular good buddy)resurrection of the dead, BOTH (that's plural good buddy) of the just and unjust.
                                FAITH IS AS FAITH DOES---- Forest Gump?
                                http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10576

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