Knight's pick 10-08-2011

[Lighthouse]

But one also has the choice of pretending on being something they are not for their entire lives, or taking that glimmering shot at happiness. Sometimes, that choice is easy

They don't have to pretend anything at all; they could be honest about their carnal desires [which is what they should do] and embrace God and His plans [because His plans are not to harm us, but to give us hope, and a future] thereby rejecting sin and take the path where joy unspeakable and a peace that passes all understanding is a sure thing.

 

[Frank Ernest]

Please tell me, will NOT doing the things listed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJV make one righteous?

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

And is that not what you implied when you used that passage as a proof text?

No. Avoiding evil is not equivalent to doing good.

 

[Frank Ernest]

POTD :first:

Never saw that coming! :noway: Thank you, Knight!

 

[Ted L Glines]

What about the commands of Jesus: John 7:24?

John 7:24 (NKJV)
24 "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”

I think you just answered your own question.

 

[alwight]

They don't have to pretend anything at all; they could be honest about their carnal desires [which is what they should do] and embrace God and His plans [because His plans are not to harm us, but to give us hope, and a future] thereby rejecting sin and take the path where joy unspeakable and a peace that passes all understanding is a sure thing.

And if you are wrong about God, His plans and "sin" etc, then they will have missed out on the only life they know they have.

 

[Frank Ernest]

Darn hormones! I can't use that as an excuse anymore. Just bad manners on my part. I apologize for assuming and I apologize for flying off the handle. I do not for one minute mean that one ought to accept sinful behavior. I do believe that the way in which one confronts the behavior of another can have either a positive or a negative effect. Name calling and condemnation do not usually have a positive result.

My military training, and subsequent events resulting therefrom, suggest you may wish to revisit that.

Oh, and perhaps your assumptions need examining?

Facts do not become assumptions because someone, somewhere, finds them unpleasant.

 

[One Eyed Jack]

It isn't the mysterious that is a problem for me Pat since I will happily accept that something is unknown rather than to simply suppose an answer.
It's those folks with a seeming unflinching certainty in what otherwise appears to be unknown and unexplainable that I find harder to accept.

What makes you think our unflinching certainty is in the unknown? We know the God we worship.

 

[MaryContrary]

And there is just as much Scripture which justifies that we need to love one another and leave judgment to God.

I think you're a lot smarter and wiser than me, bybee, so seeing you say this makes me a little uneasy. What do you mean by judgment here? Simply judging whether any particular behavior is sinful? And making that point to someone doing that?

 

[alwight]

What makes you think our unflinching certainty is in the unknown? We know the God we worship.

Do you really know or just think that you do?
If so how exactly do you know?
Why then do theists not seem to know the same God rather than, what seems to me at least, their own individual or regional version, since they never seem to agree very often on the details of what they claim to know even within a religion?
They surely can't all be right, however sure they personally are.

 

[One Eyed Jack]

Do you really know or just think that you do?

I know.

If so how exactly do you know?

How do you know your mother?

Why then do theists not seem to know the same God rather than, what seems to me at least, their own individual or regional version, since they never seem to agree very often on the details of what they claim to know even within a religion?

Can you provide some examples of these differing details?

They surely can't all be right, however sure they personally are.

I've never heard anyone outside of Christianity actually claim to know God.

 

[heir]

No. Avoiding evil is not equivalent to doing good.

That's not what I asked you. I asked you to please tell me, will NOT doing the things listed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJV make one righteous? You need 100% righteousness to get to heaven.

Why did you use 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJV as a proof text, your "final answer" implying that if you do those things you will not inherit the kingdom of God? That's why I asked you in the first place if you believed that NOT doing those things would make one righteous. You can't have it both ways. Either you believe that anyone who practices such will not go to heaven or you know that NOT doing those things is not the reason why people will not go to heaven. The key word in the verses you cited is "unrighteous".

1 Corinthians 6:9 KJV Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

It is the unrighteous that will not inherit the kingdom of God and that CANNOT be speaking of ONE person in the Body of Christ!

There shouldn't be anyone here who believes the Bible and understands what happens to someone the moment they trust the Lord for salvation believing that Christ died for their sins and that He was buried and rose again the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV). Members of the Body of Christ have the righteousness of God upon them!

Romans 3:20-24 KJV Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Romans 1:16-17 KJV For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

So I have to ask...What must one do to be saved?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

That's not what I asked you. I asked you to please tell me, will NOT doing the things listed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJV make one righteous? You need 100% righteousness to get to heaven.

Why did you use 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJV as a proof text, your "final answer" implying that if you do those things you will not inherit the kingdom of God? That's why I asked you in the first place if you believed that NOT doing those things would make one righteous. You can't have it both ways. Either you believe that anyone who practices such will not go to heaven or you know that NOT doing those things is not the reason why people will not go to heaven. The key word in the verses you cited is "unrighteous".

1 Corinthians 6:9 KJV Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

It is the unrighteous that will not inherit the kingdom of God and that CANNOT be speaking of ONE person in the Body of Christ!

There shouldn't be anyone here who believes the Bible and understands what happens to someone the moment they trust the Lord for salvation believing that Christ died for their sins and that He was buried and rose again the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Epheisnas 1:13-14 KJV). They have the righteousness of God upon them!

Romans 3:20-24 KJV Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Romans 1:16-17 KJV For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

So I have to ask...What must one do to be saved?

:BRAVO:


The verse does NOT say:


The righteous who do these things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


Great post, heir.

 

[serpentdove]

Agreed and is why I asked Frank if NOT doing those things would make one righteous. Waiting for Frank's reply.

:thumb: Agreed.

"9:12 well … sick. The Pharisees thought they were well—religiously pure and whole. The outcasts knew they were not. Salvation can’t come to the self-righteous.

9:13 go and learn what this means. This phrase was commonly used as a rebuke for those who did not know something they should have known. The verse Jesus cites is Hos. 6:6 (cf. 1 Sam. 15:22; Mic. 6:6–8), which emphasizes the absolute priority of the law’s moral standards over the ceremonial requirements. The Pharisees linger: tended to focus on the outward, ritual, and ceremonial aspects of God’s law—to the neglect of its inward, eternal, and moral precepts. In doing so, they became harsh, judgmental, and self-righteously scornful of others. Jesus repeated this same criticism in 12:7." MacArthur, John Jr: The MacArthur Study Bible. electronic ed. Nashville : Word Pub., 1997, c1997, S. Mt 9:12-13

 

[Frank Ernest]

That's not what I asked you. I asked you to please tell me, will NOT doing the things listed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJV make one righteous? You need 100% righteousness to get to heaven.

Since you seem to have a ready answer to your question, why ask me?

Why did you use 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJV as a proof text, your "final answer" implying that if you do those things you will not inherit the kingdom of God?

I do believe those particular verses carry no implications. I believe Paul is very clear.

That's why I asked you in the first place if you believed that NOT doing those things would make one righteous. You can't have it both ways.

I don't. I do believe Paul was clear enough without my assistance. Apparently, it's giving you a problem.

Either you believe that anyone who practices such will not go to heaven or you know that NOT doing those things is not the reason why people will not go to heaven. The key word in the verses you cited is "unrighteous".

I do believe you're attempting to confuse the issue, for what reason I do not know.

1 Corinthians 6:9 KJV Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

It is the unrighteous that will not inherit the kingdom of God and that CANNOT be speaking of ONE person in the Body of Christ!

If you wish to give Bible lectures, you may do so without picking a fight with me.

There shouldn't be anyone here who believes the Bible and understands what happens to someone the moment they trust the Lord for salvation believing that Christ died for their sins and that He was buried and rose again the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV). Members of the Body of Christ have the righteousness of God upon them!

Righteousness is not license.

Romans 3:20-24 KJV Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Romans 1:16-17 KJV For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

So I have to ask...What must one do to be saved?

Well, son, I've studied Scripture for quite some years and don't need to be lectured on the Christianity basics. You may prefer to think of me as just another Biblical illiterate (or target of opportunity) whom you need to inform/educate/convert or whatever, but such isn't the case. I don't subscribe to universalism either if that's where you're headed.

 

[alwight]

I know.

I think that you probably genuinely think you do know but also probably dare not express or even admit to yourself any degree of doubt.

How do you know your mother?

She is made of real matter that I can touch and I drive her to the shops once a week and sometimes to the hairdresser.

Can you provide some examples of these differing details?

Yes of course I could, but you only need to look around TOL to see how individually the supposed word of God gets interpreted by fundies and others who seem to claim knowledge, but they can't all be right or have knowledge.

I've never heard anyone outside of Christianity actually claim to know God.

So you doubt that other religionists are sincere in what they believe and think that they know? But perhaps they are all deluded?
There are indeed Christians here on TOL who will claim that God is actually unknowable to which I sort of agree.

 

[heir]

Since you seem to have a ready answer to your question, why ask me?

You cited 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJV as a proof text.

I do believe those particular verses carry no implications. I believe Paul is very clear.

And yet you felt the need to use them for what then? And yes, he is. The holy Spirit through Paul was very deliberate when using the word "unrighteous" so that religious men could not use the verses deceitfully although they continue to try over and over again.

I don't. I do believe Paul was clear enough without my assistance. Apparently, it's giving you a problem.

I have a problem when religious men rip these verses out and use them as if to say that those who practice such things cannot enter the kingdom of God. That is exactly what you did. I called you on it.

I do believe you're attempting to confuse the issue, for what reason I do not know.

I called you on the misuse of scripture. Now you can refrain from using them in the manner in which you did in the future.

If you wish to give Bible lectures, you may do so without picking a fight with me.

I'm not picking a fight. You're the one that used 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJV as a proof text, your "final answer". You used it as if it said one thing when in fact, it says another entirely.

Righteousness is not license.

For what? And who said it is?

Well, son, I've studied Scripture for quite some years and don't need to be lectured on the Christianity basics. You may prefer to think of me as just another Biblical illiterate (or target of opportunity) whom you need to inform/educate/convert or whatever, but such isn't the case.

This is your response to the question, "What must one do to be saved?"? Can you answer the question?

I don't subscribe to universalism either if that's where you're headed.

nor do I

 

[Lighthouse]

John 7:24 (NKJV)
24 "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”

I think you just answered your own question.

Of course I did. I was making a point.

Did you not get that?

Well, now that I've made it clear, do you know what the point was?

And if you are wrong about God, His plans and "sin" etc, then they will have missed out on the only life they know they have.

God isn't wrong, and He is whom with you should concern yourself.

:BRAVO:


The verse does NOT say:


The righteous who do these things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


Great post, heir.

I'm almost afraid she missed his point.

The verse does not even say that those who do those things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. It says that those who are those things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. And in v11 we see that those who are righteous are not those things, even if they formerly were. If someone is one of those and they come to God they no longer are what they used to be. And if one is no longer a homosexual then why act like they are? Why commit acts of homosexuality in the flesh? "Shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound?" I know you know the answer.

 

[alwight]

And if you are wrong about God, His plans and "sin" etc, then they will have missed out on the only life they know they have.

God isn't wrong, and He is whom with you should concern yourself.

Why is that LH, because you say so, because you presume to speak for your God?
My point was actually about you being fallible and possibly wrong about God, but apparently you and your God are one and the same thing, in your mind anyway.

 

[Lighthouse]

Why is that LH, because you say so, because you presume to speak for your God?
My point was actually about you being fallible and possibly wrong about God, but apparently you and your God are one and the same thing, in your mind anyway.

I never said anything of the sort, you presumptive twit.

You have concerned yourself with my fallibility and the possibility I could be wrong. You shouldn't. Why? Because I am fallible, and I could be wrong on a great many things. You should only concern yourself with God, for He is neither fallible or wrong, ever.

 

[alwight]

I never said anything of the sort, you presumptive twit.

You have concerned yourself with my fallibility and the possibility I could be wrong. You shouldn't. Why? Because I am fallible, and I could be wrong on a great many things. You should only concern yourself with God, for He is neither fallible or wrong, ever.

We agree then LH that clearly you, me and everyone else is fallible, and there is nothing very presumptive about that imo.
What would be presumptive however imo would be in you presuming that you are somehow empowered to speak for God perhaps simply by proxy from words written in the Bible maybe. Those who do not happen to share your own personal or Biblical absolutist views nor think that you speak for God I rather think should be allowed to do so without any interference from you or from any "Christian" Taliban.

But from what you say here it seems that perhaps you do only offer your own fallible opinion?
Nevertheless apparently you continue to advocate that practising gays be jailed or even executed while others are denied a chance of living this life in a way that suits them, even though you are fallible and could well be wrong.
What is not presumptuous about that, twit?