Why would God need a hell?

[SonOfCaleb]

Christianity is a religion, its not the stamp of God. Jesus is not a Christian, God is not a Christian, Christian is a label the Romans gave them that they accepted. There are no Christians in heaven, the term Christian is meaningless to God.

All the ways of religion are meaningless to God, as are all the nations of mankind. Isaiah 40:17, " ALL nations before him are as nothing; they are counted BY HIM as LESS than nothing and meaningless!" This is WHY God has absolutely no problem with forcing salvation on humanity; he is going to get his way, and there is absolutely nothing any of us can do about it.

This viewpoint is incorrect. As the Bible says Jehovah himself gave the new followers of Jesus the name 'Christians' and not the Romans or anybody else.
The appellation Christian didn't arise until circa 44CE, after Jesus death, when at the Christian congregation in Antioch the Christians were called by divine providence "Christians". In other words this was the name given to followers of Christ by Jehovah.

Acts 11:26 "After he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year they assembled with them in the congregation and taught quite a crowd, and it was first in Antioch that the disciples were by divine providence called Christians".

In fact Isaiah 62:2 foretold that Jehovah would designate a new name for his people at Isaiah 62:2 "And you will be called by a new name, Which Jehovah’s own mouth will designate".

 

[Mickiel]

This viewpoint is incorrect. As the Bible says Jehovah himself gave the new followers of Jesus the name 'Christians' and not the Romans or anybody else.
The appellation Christian didn't arise until circa 44CE, after Jesus death, when at the Christian congregation in Antioch the Christians were called by divine providence "Christians". In other words this was the name given to followers of Christ by Jehovah.

Acts 11:26 "After he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year they assembled with them in the congregation and taught quite a crowd, and it was first in Antioch that the disciples were by divine providence called Christians".

In fact Isaiah 62:2 foretold that Jehovah would designate a new name for his people at Isaiah 62:2 "And you will be called by a new name, Which Jehovah’s own mouth will designate".

The Romans created the name Christian, there are absolutely no scriptures in the entire bible that say God or Christ created the name Christian;

now if your religion believes differently, simply show me the scriptures that claim God created that label.

This I got to see.

 

[SonOfCaleb]

Thank you for the clarification. But does man define God or does God define man?

God said in Genesis to Jesus "Let us make man in our image". Therefore man obviously cannot define the creator as man is created in the image of God.

I don't know if God is omni-present but I am not going to bet against it if He is already infinite and eternal.

I do, because the Bible proves empircally he's not.

Also the Bible tells us that Jehovah is eternal. He has no beginning and no end. His always existed.

 

[SonOfCaleb]

The Romans created the name Christian, there are absolutely no scriptures in the entire bible that say God or Christ created the name Christian;

now if your religion believes differently, simply show me the scriptures that claim God created that label.

This I got to see.

I just gave you two scriptures which i quoted above that prove otherwise. Acts 11:26 proves empirically that the name for the Christians came from God and NOT the Romans.
Matter of fact secular records show the Romans didnt even like to use the name Christian for this new 'sect', instead preferring to use derogatory names like Judaizers for them.

Young's Literal Translation (YLT) says:

26 and having found him, he brought him to Antioch, and it came to pass that they a whole year did assemble together in the assembly, and taught a great multitude, the disciples also were divinely called first in Antioch Christians.

 

[Mickiel]

I just gave you two scriptures which i quoted above that prove otherwise. Acts 11:26 proves empirically that the name for the Christians came from God and NOT the Romans.
Matter of fact secular records show the Romans didnt even like to use the name Christian for this new 'sect', instead preferring to use derogatory names like Judaizers for them.

Young's Literal Translation (YLT) says:

26 and having found him, he brought him to Antioch, and it came to pass that they a whole year did assemble together in the assembly, and taught a great multitude, the disciples also were divinely called first in Antioch Christians.

I totally disagree, the new name is given in Isaiah 62:4, it was " Hephzibah", which simply means " Pleasure", it does not mean Christian. Notice;

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/christian.html

 

[SonOfCaleb]

I totally disagree, the new name is given in Isaiah 62:4, it was " Hephzibah", which simply means " Pleasure", it does not mean Christian. Notice;

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/christian.html

I suggest you familiarize yourself with the Greek manuscripts used for translating Acts 11:26 then.
Both the NWT and the YLT use the correct translation from Greek of the word "chrematizo" which means to be divinely commanded, admonished or instructed.

The translators of most Bible editions such as the KJV have omitted this important part of the translation from Greek into English for that verse.

 

[Mickiel]

I suggest you familiarize yourself with the Greek manuscripts used for translating Acts 11:26 then.
Both the NWT and the YLT use the correct translation from Greek of the word "chrematizo" which means to be divinely commanded, admonished or instructed.

The translators of most Bible editions such as the KJV have omitted this important part of the translation from Greek into English for that verse.

Well thank you for your suggestion, but I will be fine. I hold no obligation to the term Christian.

 

[SonOfCaleb]

Neither do i, as we are known as Jehovahs Witnesses (Isaiah 43:10 You are my witnesses,” declares Jehovah) to deliberately diffrentiate ourselves from the many Christian demoninations of Christendom.
But if as per 2 Tim 3:16 you believe all scripture to be 'inspired of God' then surely you have no problem beliveing Gods words in Acts 11:26. Its not my interpretation. Thats what the scriptures says, and its what the Greek manuscript says.

 

[Mickiel]

Neither do i, as we are known as Jehovahs Witnesses (Isaiah 43:10 You are my witnesses,” declares Jehovah) to deliberately diffrentiate ourselves from the many Christian demoninations of Christendom.
But if as per 2 Tim 3:16 you believe all scripture to be 'inspired of God' then surely you have no problem beliveing Gods words in Acts 11:26. Its not my interpretation. Thats what the scriptures says, and its what the Greek manuscript says.

I have no problem believing what it says; it says " They were called Christians", now WHO called them that? God and Christ did not call them that, they did not call themselves that; pagans called them that. Why should God use pagans to give his people an official title?

 

[bsmitts]

I have no problem believing what it says; it says " They were called Christians", now WHO called them that? God and Christ did not call them that, they did not call themselves that; pagans called them that. Why should God use pagans to give his people an official title?

You're quite right! The title Christian was coined by pagan Rome during the early church or sometime after. Not sure when exactly. However, the word Christian is only used 3 times in the Bible. The term most used to identify believers in biblical scripture is "saints."

 

[freelight]

Infinity..............

Infinity..............

All paths DO NOT lead to God and neither is God everywhere as Exodus 34:14 tells us "You must not bow down to another god, for Jehovah is known for requiring exclusive devotion. Yes, he is a God who requires exclusive devotion"

Recall also the words of the first two commandments given to Israel:-

Exodus 20:2-5 "I am Jehovah your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 3 You must not have any other gods besides me.
4 “You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters under the earth. 5You must not bow down to them nor be enticed to serve them, for I, Jehovah your God, am a God who requires exclusive devotion"

Therefore from the earliest days that Israel was established as nation, and in fact prior to that, it was known by worshipers of Jehovah that they were to give exclusive devotion to Jehovah only. For those that choose to disobey, that is Israelite's who worshiped false Gods willingly, the Mosaic Law prescribed capital punishment for their sins.

If you recall when Moses went to get the Law the petulant Israelite's erected a Golden Calf and started to worship it. Those that did paid the price with their lives as Exodus 32:26 says "Then Moses took his position in the gate of the camp and said: “Who is on Jehovah’s side? Come to me!” And all the Levites gathered around him. 27 He now said to them: “This is what Jehovah the God of Israel has said, ‘Each of you must fasten on his sword and pass through all the camp from gate to gate, killing his brother, his neighbor, and his close companion.’” 28 The Levites did what Moses said. So about 3,000 men were killed on that day".

There are numerous examples all over the OT where false worship was not tolerated. Therefore all paths cannot lead to God as clearly demonstrated in the OT as well as by Jesus own testimony in the NT. If you are not worshiping Jehovah then you can only be worshiping the god of this system which is Satan the Devil. It is Satan who established false worship. And it is Satan who has deceitfully led nations astray under the pretense that they are worshiping Jehovah God, when in fact the nations are doing obeisance to him, that is Satan, via their false gods.

The prophet Isaiah says Jehovah's throne is in the heavens Isa 66:1 "This is what Jehovah says: “The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where, then, is the house that you could build for me, And where is my resting-place?". Many prophets such as Daniel and Elijah were given visions of Jehovah's heavenly court. Those visions would clearly be erroneous if God dwelt everywhere which the Bible does not indicate anywhere. He has a location where he lives. Its in the heavens.

Hi SOC,

All paths along a mountain, if all spiraling to the top eventually, may reach the summit - the earth, mountain and summit are all one, it is only the terrain and relative perception of space(distance) and various directions possible upon the mountain, that make for a noted difference of paths, all on the same earth. 'God' is the ground (the ground of all 'being'), the paths are alternate ways towards the summit, the highest realization of God-consciousness.

It is only if you are circumscribing yourself to the Bible only assuming its textual-context as the only or final revelation of 'God', that the above may apply by such terms or technicalities,...but remember, 'God' is infinite.

"Do not I fill the heavens and the earth?"

And even they and all dimensions that we know of cannot contain Him, because He is INFINITE. It is only our limited finite minds which circumscribe, limit, attempt to define, localize or approximate 'God'. From a relative perspective, yes....we assume localities, spheres, realms for every-thing and being, so 'God' is said to abide in his celestial realm, seated on a 'throne' of power, in Paradise, the highest heavens, etc. In the realm of space-time dimensionality and distance, sure....we use such language to compare, describe and contrast different localities, spheres, dimensions, in order to relate difference and dimensions.

However, from the realm of The Absolute Itself (pure being, pure consciousness, pure Spirit)...there is only that pure essence that is unconditioned by space or time, the divine nature itself, pure Deity. The "I Am", which is the light of being recognizing itself as it IS, the identity of pure spirit.

But lest I digress,...just saying, that while omnipresence may seem to be just a philosophical concept of metaphysical assumption, consider it,....consider that at the heart of all that is.....is a primal spirit-energy-consciousness....and that God's essence originates the substance and form of this cosmos, every atom, cell, thing, being in existence, upholding their very life and its potential. The infinite fills all space, and is still beyond it as the originating source of all space and time, appearing as the play of creation. Yet every atom is spinning with life, vibrating to its own special frequency, so that the consciousness of God fills all creation, within and without.

From the UB -

3:1.1 The ability of the Universal Father to be everywhere present, and at the same time, constitutes his omnipresence. God alone can be in two places, in numberless places, at the same time. God is simultaneously present “in heaven above and on the earth beneath”; as the Psalmist exclaimed: “Whither shall I go from your spirit? or whither shall I flee from your presence?”

3:1.2 “`I am a God at hand as well as afar off,' says the Lord. `Do not I fill heaven and earth?'” The Universal Father is all the time present in all parts and in all hearts of his far-flung creation. He is “the fullness of him who fills all and in all,” and “who works all in all,” and further, the concept of his personality is such that “the heaven universe and heaven of heavens (universe of universes) cannot contain him.” It is literally true that God is all and in all. But even that is not all of God. The Infinite can be finally revealed only in infinity; the cause can never be fully comprehended by an analysis of effects; the living God is immeasurably greater than the sum total of creation that has come into being as a result of the creative acts of his unfettered free will. God is revealed throughout the cosmos, but the cosmos can never contain or encompass the entirety of the infinity of God.

3:1.6 The omnipresence of God is in reality a part of his infinite nature; space constitutes no barrier to Deity.

 

[freelight]

Pan-en-theism

Pan-en-theism

Well we have other hints of God having a specific location, Ezk. 1:4, " I looked and behold a whirlwind came out of the north.", and this came from God. In Isaiah 14:13, this being is trying to ascend into heaven and be above God; he goes into the north. In Psalms 75:6 it says promotion does not come from the east, west or the south; which leaves the north. A specific location.

Hi Mickiel,

Yes,....as long as we live in this creation defined, ordered and differentiated by space and time (anywhere where there is 'relativity')...we perceive dimensions and distance, or experience realms according to their degree or quality of existence. Hence 'God' is assumed to be out there beyond in the highest celestial sphere, or on the Isle of Paradise at the very center of creation, the geographical center of infinity.

But there also a part of 'God' that indwells us and the creation, since we are his temple, and other aspects of the infinite Spirit which fills all space, in its various qualities and ministrations. So really, 'God' is both within and without creation, pervading it as well as transcending it,....which represents a 'pan-entheistic' cosmology.

 

[freelight]

This 'idea' of 'seperation'......

This 'idea' of 'seperation'......

Well again that was " your" experience , and good for you; but your experience is not everyonelse's. If a biblical reader is trying to expound that there is no separation from God, they are totally ignoring the 34 verses I gave you.

Note, its their own limited relative perception of 'seperation'. If 'God' is truly omnipresent, one cannot ever be separated. The illusion or delusion of 'seperation' is the suffering.

Now what is the separation? Well its real spiritual knowledge, its every day guidance, its lack of his Holy Spirit, every human does not have these things now. Now, what do we continually have from God? Well we have life , but when we die we are separated from that. We can have good health, but not all have that. We have consciousness, which is the continual image of God, and everyone has that, yet some are separated from consciousness.

If we consider your points above, from a universalist perspective....it is only possible temporarily to be separate from God, since all souls eventually/ultimately attain to or awaken to the true spirit-reality or consciousness of God, so any kind of 'seperation' is only temporal, and NEVER endless or everlasting.

But we could also take some of these points from a 'conditional immortality' POV, and say yes....some who choose iniquity whole-heartedly and come to a place of total rejection of God, reap the harvest of their iniquity by really DYING, by undergoing the 'second death',.....a disintegration of being, a termination of conscious existence, a final perishing. Just as 'univesalism' has scriptural supports, 'conditional immortality' or 'soul-death' does as well.

These 2 options above of course are better than ECT.

 

[freelight]

sowing and reaping.....

sowing and reaping.....

so it does matter what you do

Yes,....as long as there are consequences to our thoughts, words and actions. (law of karma)

 

[SonOfCaleb]

I have no problem believing what it says; it says " They were called Christians", now WHO called them that? God and Christ did not call them that, they did not call themselves that; pagans called them that. Why should God use pagans to give his people an official title?

I've already shown you in the scriptures who called the disciples of Christ Christian's. Seems quite ironic that in an earlier post you condemned Christendom for its adherents dogmaticism and yet you're also displaying a similar attitude in that you're not willing to accept what Gods word says in Acts 11:26 as it doesnt accord with your belief.

Firstly there's not a shred of evidence secularly that proves it was the Romans or pagans that gave the Christians their name, as as i already explained the Romans initially, and non Christians never called them Christians, which secular history DOES attest to. The notion that their name came from pagans or Rome has only ever been conjecture from academic theologians.

Secondly the Bible does tell us other terms that were used for the Christians by non-christians,to outsiders Christianity was referred to as “The Way” (Ac 9:2; 19:9, 23; 22:4), and opponents called it “the sect of the Nazarenes” or just “this sect.”—Ac 24:5; 28:22. Matter of fact i believe the Talmud still refers to Christians as Notzrim which means Nazarenes. The Jewish posters here can confirm.

Now dont take my word for this. Do your own research if you doubt what im saying. But im more than happy to provide theological as well as secular sources which validate my position and thus the position of the Bible.

 

[SonOfCaleb]

Hi SOC,

All paths along a mountain, if all spiraling to the top eventually, may reach the summit - the earth, mountain and summit are all one, it is only the terrain and relative perception of space(distance) and various directions possible upon the mountain, that make for a noted difference of paths, all on the same earth. 'God' is the ground (the ground of all 'being'), the paths are alternate ways towards the summit, the highest realization of God-consciousness.

It is only if you are circumscribing yourself to the Bible only assuming its textual-context as the only or final revelation of 'God', that the above may apply by such terms or technicalities,...but remember, 'God' is infinite.

"Do not I fill the heavens and the earth?"

And even they and all dimensions that we know of cannot contain Him, because He is INFINITE. It is only our limited finite minds which circumscribe, limit, attempt to define, localize or approximate 'God'. From a relative perspective, yes....we assume localities, spheres, realms for every-thing and being, so 'God' is said to abide in his celestial realm, seated on a 'throne' of power, in Paradise, the highest heavens, etc. In the realm of space-time dimensionality and distance, sure....we use such language to compare, describe and contrast different localities, spheres, dimensions, in order to relate difference and dimensions.

However, from the realm of The Absolute Itself (pure being, pure consciousness, pure Spirit)...there is only that pure essence that is unconditioned by space or time, the divine nature itself, pure Deity. The "I Am", which is the light of being recognizing itself as it IS, the identity of pure spirit.

But lest I digress,...just saying, that while omnipresence may seem to be just a philosophical concept of metaphysical assumption, consider it,....consider that at the heart of all that is.....is a primal spirit-energy-consciousness....and that God's essence originates the substance and form of this cosmos, every atom, cell, thing, being in existence, upholding their very life and its potential. The infinite fills all space, and is still beyond it as the originating source of all space and time, appearing as the play of creation. Yet every atom is spinning with life, vibrating to its own special frequency, so that the consciousness of God fills all creation, within and without.

Hi Freelight. Respectfully i do not agree. I've made my position already clear regarding omnipresence. Its just simply not a Bible teaching. Its a teaching that wasnt present in Judaism prior to Christianity. And it wasnt present in early christianity either.
As iv said already this belief is rooted in platonic, Greek philosophy/theology.
The Bible is replete with examples that show where Jehovah resides and that he is a temporal being.

 

[Mickiel]

I've already shown you in the scriptures who called the disciples of Christ Christian's. Seems quite ironic that in an earlier post you condemned Christendom for its adherents dogmaticism and yet you're also displaying a similar attitude in that you're not willing to accept what Gods word says in Acts 11:26 as it doesnt accord with your belief.
.

I am willing to accept that somebody other than themselves called them Christians, that is what that one verse in Acts states. Who was around to call them that other than pagans, which Rome was full of? You have not given me any biblical scriptures showing God or Christ calling them Christian, you have not given me at least 3 other scriptures to support you; I mean at least give me 3 other scriptures that reveal Christian is a God breathed name; is that too much to ask for?

 

[Prizebeatz1]

God said in Genesis to Jesus "Let us make man in our image". Therefore man obviously cannot define the creator as man is created in the image of God.



I do, because the Bible proves empircally he's not.

Also the Bible tells us that Jehovah is eternal. He has no beginning and no end. His always existed.

As mentioned in a previous post (thanks Freelight, you're my hero) from Jeremaih 23:24 "Who can hide in secret places so that I cannot see them?" declares the LORD. "Do not I fill heaven and earth?" declares the LORD." Perhaps most people do not know any better. I was the same way for a long time and then I found out the truth for myself. I do not solely depend on the bible to tell me about God anymore. I've found it is more of a tool and a guide. The experience of God to me goes way further than the bible. It extends to infinity and eternity. It doesn't do much good to just talk about it with words and write about it in scriptures. It is meant to be felt, lived and experienced for our own good. It is the path to feeling our own infinite self-worth. Anything less is a cheap substitute.

 

[SonOfCaleb]

Who was around to call them that other than pagans, which Rome was full of? You have not given me any biblical scriptures showing God or Christ calling them Christian, you have not given me at least 3 other scriptures to support you; I mean at least give me 3 other scriptures that reveal Christian is a God breathed name; is that too much to ask for?

You're moving the goal post. Ive already provided you with scriptural evidence as to origin of the name Christian which was my point, and was your original point that i responded to.

I disputed your contention as to WHO called the early disciples of Christs Christians. NOT wether Jehovah or Jesus referred to them as Christians throughout the Bible. The point being which il punctuate for the last time the origin of the name Christian came from God and not pagans.

 

[SonOfCaleb]

As mentioned in a previous post (thanks Freelight, you're my hero) from Jeremaih 23:24 "Who can hide in secret places so that I cannot see them?" declares the LORD. "Do not I fill heaven and earth?" declares the LORD." Perhaps most people do not know any better. I was the same way for a long time and then I found out the truth for myself. I do not solely depend on the bible to tell me about God. It is more of a tool and a guide, IMO. The experience of God to me goes way further than the bible. It extends to infinity and eternity. It doesn't do much good to just talk about it with words and write about it in scriptures. It is meant to be felt, lived and experience for our own good. It is the path to feeling our own infinite self-worth. Anything less is a cheap substitute.

The Bible is the only book Jehovah bequeathed to humanity so mankind can understand God and his will. Any opinions outside of Gods words in the Bible in respect of God clearly can only be subjective, and therefore are uninspired and do not originate with God, as 2 Tim 3:16 tells us the Bible is his inspired word.