Why would God need a hell?

[Mickiel]

Well said. I think the misunderstanding for me occurred because I thought salvation was conditional on me hanging onto my beliefs. It was just the opposite. The attachment WAS the hell, or should I say the perceived hell. I remember how frustrating it was and I hope my experience can help someone.

Of course your experience can help people, but only if you keep sharing it. I actually think that most people who come to websites remain silent observers, never really sharing their views. Notice Mark 5:19, go tell people your experience.

Salvation is unconditional, its human believers who place the conditions on it, they reduce it to an obstacle course, and always through their religion. I maintain that what made Rev. 12:9 possible for satan to deceive a whole planet, was his use of religion.

 

[Mickiel]

Why would God need a hell? Heaven has existed for all of eternity without a hell, why would it need one now?

 

[Mickiel]

With men and religion the salvation of All is just not possible, its simply unheard of and unrealistic; to some even blasphemy. Imagine that, the beauty of every human being forgiven and given salvation, is considered blasphemy. Is then the salvation of all possible, or are those who are trusting in it simply barking up the wrong tree? In Mark 10:27, " With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God ALL things are possible!" And that was Christ teaching that.

This includes the salvation of all of created humanity, its possible. Now let us reason together , if the total rehabilitation of mankind is possible , why in the world of intelligence and Grace, would beings as powerful as God and Christ, not see to it getting done? Its not like they can't do it , or don't want to do it; in fact the real future of humanity depends on it.

In John 3:16, " For God so Loved the World"; I think that right there is a key to what God is going to do, yea, has done! The Love of God, his pregnant heart became willing to have billions of children; and in Isaiah 66:9, it reveals that he will not abort ANY of them!

 

[freelight]

All-pervading Light......

All-pervading Light......

If there is only one way to God then we believe God is not already everywhere? Agreed? Can we reduce God? Does man define God or does God define man? I think that's part of the misconception. God, heaven, salvation, enlightenment are already forever present in the timeless Now but something is in the way.

Aumen,....'God' is One and All,.....ever omnipresent, all-radiant, ever Being. The "I AM" Presence

If 'God' is already everywhere, there is nowhere where 'God' is not. The very essence of one's recognition of 'being' is the heart-source of every thing and reality in the universe, from which that 'awareness' cannot be separate from its very source.

That 'pure spirit-awareness' of 'being-ness' is one's true essential nature, while all other assumptions and inter-actions of the body/mind (ego) are more or less temporal, conditional and part of the evolving personality, subject to change, while the timeless 'Self' ever remains.

That something is the adversary, the personality which uses thoughts and beliefs to make us feel separate from our natural state of infinite oneness.

Indeed, we explore this some in my 'Return To Oneness' thread

Symbolism my friend. Symbolism. Jesus represents the soul and Satan represents the personality. It goes much deeper than what appears on the surface.

So the story goes, since all 'language' is 'symbolic', subject to translation, interpretation. Which is why study of the occult/esoteric laws, archetypes and principles found within most all religious traditions/schools, being the 'perennial wisdom' or 'theosophy' is advantageous, since at the core of all illumined traditions is the universal truth and wisdom, shared in various symbols, myth and metaphor. If we do not recognize the inner teaching of the Spirit reflected thru the symbol of language, we miss the heart and soul of the written word which points us to the hidden meaning and value of inspired writ.

 

[Mickiel]

I kind of have a different view on this God being omnipresent, I don't think he is, and I have never seen a scripture that claims he is. And I don't think he needs to be. In Zech. 4:10 it is describing angels that are " The eyes of the Lord', which run to and fro through the whole earth. I think God has angels everywhere, and that is being confused as him being everywhere at the same time. But it again goes to show you how some teachings can go so far into our consciousness, that we just accept them as being true without question.

Sit down and search the scriptures for God being omnipresent, and see what you find.

 

[freelight]

"Do not I fill heaven and earth?"

"Do not I fill heaven and earth?"

Why would God need a hell? Heaven has existed for all of eternity without a hell, why would it need one now?

'Heaven' and 'hell' from a relative finite perspective are but conditions of consciousness, or states of mind, which are further modified thru the law of karma, the consequences of one's own activity of mind, conditioned by so many other factors. If we assume 'heaven' as the purest most primodial condition of the divine nature and presence, this it is timeless in its essence, and has not been affected or conditioned by time at all, since it is thru 'time' that 'sin', 'disease' and 'death' even exist, or come into effect. When time is no more, or transcended....there is only the timeless itself. Therefore in the Advaita Vedanta (non-duality) tradition of the Vedic school, one comes to realize that "I am that", the soul recognizing the timeless Self as the eternal absolute reality, all else being transitional.

The wonderful thing is when all the determining factors allow for the full manifestation of 'heaven', then 'heaven' is revealed as it already always is,....which is always in our midst, if 'God' is omnipresent. Hence the 'kingdom of heaven' is 'at hand', 'within', 'among us', at our very door. 'God' cannot be absent from his own 'Self', the 'Self' that indwells souls, the presence or consciousness of 'God' that is individualized in each sentient being.

Recognizing omnipresence then, may alter our perception or assumptions of 'salvation', and what it is one needs to be saved from, if anything, since 'God' is already always Being, as the reality inherent in the "I" of consciousness. If 'God' is already the fullness and radiance of Life right NOW, and forever....then there is nowhere to go, nothing to attain, except for our mind's interpretation and experience of life thru the medium of 'time' as the 'play' (lila) of creation. When time is no more, or swallowed up into 'eternity', only the eternal reality shines as what IS.

We explored this more in my Non-Duality thread (no longer extant), but here we touch on it to see how this might relate to the concept of 'universal salvation'. Just another perspective......:surf:

 

[Prizebeatz1]

I kind of have a different view on this God being omnipresent, I don't think he is, and I have never seen a scripture that claims he is. And I don't think he needs to be. In Zech. 4:10 it is describing angels that are " The eyes of the Lord', which run to and fro through the whole earth. I think God has angels everywhere, and that is being confused as him being everywhere at the same time. But it again goes to show you how some teachings can go so far into our consciousness, that we just accept them as being true without question.

Sit down and search the scriptures for God being omnipresent, and see what you find.

You could be right. Maybe God is not everywhere. And yes, Something in the scriptures about God's omnipresence would be difficult to come by. It is one of the first things they teach in most Sunday schools however. It's basic but for some reason it doesn't seem to be a popular topic. Seems like one has to find out the answers for oneself.

 

[Mickiel]

You could be right. Maybe God is not everywhere. And yes, Something in the scriptures about God's omnipresence would be difficult to come by. It is one of the first things they teach in most Sunday schools however. It's basic but for some reason it doesn't seem to be a popular topic. Seems like one has to find out the answers for oneself.

Well one has to ask themselves, " Why" should God bother with being everywhere at the same time? I mean he can go anywhere he wants, but why should he concern himself with being everywhere? I mean, is God in your garbage can? Is he in your basement? Is he in the pot of food your cooking? Is he on Mars? Is he inside of the Sun? Is he in your dog house? Why should God be in places that do not interest him at the time?

God has focus , but he has perhaps trillions of faithful angels who are his servants ; they do as they are told, and go where they are sent. And stay where they are assigned.

 

[Prizebeatz1]

Well one has to ask themselves, " Why" should God bother with being everywhere at the same time? I mean he can go anywhere he wants, but why should he concern himself with being everywhere? I mean, is God in your garbage can? Is he in your basement? Is he in the pot of food your cooking? Is he on Mars? Is he inside of the Sun? Is he in your dog house? Why should God be in places that do not interest him at the time?

God has focus , but he has perhaps trillions of faithful angels who are his servants ; they do as they are told, and go where they are sent. And stay where they are assigned.

Great questions. The answer to most of them is I don't know. But here's something that may help shed some light. There's this thing called space. It seems like emptiness. However, space is a very mysterious concept because nothing could exist without it. It is the space around everything that enables things to stand out. It's the enabler of existence. I think Acts 17:28 briefly touches on it: 'For in him we live and move and have our being.' That's just my interpretation however feeble it may be. I think space is a mystery and there's something about it we can't fully fathom as humans.

 

[Mickiel]

The bible continues in stressing that all humans are in God's plans, and that he did not plan a hell life for them. In Acts 3:26, " Unto you first God, having raised up his Son, sent him to bless you, in turning away EVERY ONE of you from their sins." Jesus was sent to earth to bless everyone ; we have to embrace this in our spirit, as the oppressive religions out there are needing to preach their gospels of exclusion.

 

[Mickiel]

Great questions. The answer to most of them is I don't know. But here's something that may help shed some light. There's this thing called space. It seems like emptiness. However, space is a very mysterious concept because nothing could exist without it. It is the space around everything that enables things to stand out. It's the enabler of existence. I think Acts 17:28 briefly touches on it: 'For in him we live and move and have our being.' That's just my interpretation however feeble it may be. I think space is a mystery and there's something about it we can't fully fathom as humans.

Well I think space has a future; God made the universe to one day populate it and put it to use. The things he has planned for space, are perhaps astounding.

 

[ttruscott]

That was ad hominem??? The Borg are fictional beings that assimilate other cultures. You assimilate "all paths lead to God." It is fairly Baha'i, New Age, and Eastern Mysticism with Buddhism mixed in. I think it an apt descriptor. You can give me better handles than Borg. Someone gave you that moniker and it stuck in my head as appropriate.

He follows the Urantia Book I believe...

 

[ttruscott]

Acts 17:30, God has winked at sin. Period. The latter part of same verse has God commanding men to repent after he winked; you repent from sin.

wink: Strong's G5237 - hyperoraō
to overlook, take no notice of, not attend to

Of the 34 parallel Bible verses at http://biblehub.com/acts/17-30.htm

3 (two of which are KJV bibles) use winked at and the rest but one used overlooked.

 

[freelight]

No, I dont necessarily follow any one book or collection of books

No, I dont necessarily follow any one book or collection of books

He follows the Urantia Book I believe...

Not necessarily, since I'm a student of comparative religions, many different schools and traditions, an 'eclectic theosophist' of sorts. The UB, Bible, Vedas, Tao Te Ching, Koran, and other religious writings are just part of the great heritage of religion we have here on the planet. There is a 'perennial wisdom' that is the golden thread thru all schools of religion, philosophy and science, so one can learn something in all.

Any interested in the UB, can read the OP and my commentaries on that thread here,....such are commentary on the teachings within that collection of papers, as they relate to religion, philosophy or science. 'God' or 'Deity' is the universal energy-spirit-consciousness at the heart of all that IS, depending on how we define this 'absolute reality', whether we personify it or not as well.

Accepting just one version/concept of 'God' or 'Spirit' does not describe or comprise the totality of reality also revealed within other traditions and schools of our human family. There is always 'more' than just one category or description of Deity, the absolute, universal, ultimate, infinite ONE. While western forms of religious tradition have some truth, the oriential schools of religious philosophy and metaphysics (Hinduism/Buddhism/Taoism, etc.) have much to offer by way of the 'eternal wisdom'.

 

[ttruscott]

Can someone please explain to me how all paths could NOT lead to God if God is everywhere? I feel this thread has stopped helping us reach a resolution to the original question. And please don't try to skip this question because it's inconvenient. I honestly want to hear what people have to say.

GOd hates false gods and idols: 1 Corinthians 10:20 - But I [say], that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

Therefore it is clear that worship of a false god idol does NOT lead to GOD which is not a statement of place but a statement of the purity of HIS NAME.

 

[ttruscott]

Why would God need a hell? Heaven has existed for all of eternity without a hell, why would it need one now?

You like to support with scripture - support this contention please.

The 'heaven' before creation as not a place as no place existed. When heaven became a place with created people in it, no hell was need until Satan fell.

Nor do I think that it was CREATED for Satan. The outer darkness Jesus mentioned may be out past the edge of created reality given our reality is not infinite in direction nor dimension, thus hell was not created but left over from creation.

 

[Mickiel]

You like to support with scripture - support this contention please.

The 'heaven' before creation as not a place as no place existed. When heaven became a place with created people in it, no hell was need until Satan fell.

Nor do I think that it was CREATED for Satan. The outer darkness Jesus mentioned may be out past the edge of created reality given our reality is not infinite in direction nor dimension, thus hell was not created but left over from creation.

I think 2 Pet. 3:5-7 would do. It states by the word of God the heavens were of old, one can reference Ps. 115:16, Ps. 102:25, Heb. 1:10, Is. 42:5. And in Revelations chapter 4 and 5, it gives a prior view of Heaven, and no record of hell or evil is given. Revelations 5 begins the history of man and God using Christ to open the seven seals that unfold the history of man and his future. Revelations 12th chapter explains this history again, then evil is allowed on the scene.

In Acts 3:21 it says heaven must receive the times of the " Restoration of all things", this means heaven and earth will be restored to a prior time where no sin and evil existed.

 

[Prizebeatz1]

Man you are hitting some spots that I have had the feeling to say but not the words. I'm loving it. Please forgive my sloppy forum structure.

 

[freelight]

Man you are hitting some spots that I have had the feeling to say but not the words. I'm loving it. Please forgive my sloppy forum structure.

Thanks,......no worries,...you learn with practice,...you can also refine/edit your post by seeing what it will look like first in the 'preview mode' before you actually post it. You can also correct your post by going into 'edit' mode, and preview your editing to make its just right before re-posting

You can practice with your last post by putting my commentary in the proper "quote" box......give it a whirl.......

 

[Prizebeatz1]

GOd hates false gods and idols: 1 Corinthians 10:20 - But I [say], that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

Therefore it is clear that worship of a false god idol does NOT lead to GOD which is not a statement of place but a statement of the purity of HIS NAME.

You didn't really answer the question. Perhaps the hatred you claim God has is an unconscious projection of your own self-hatred onto the world around you. That is the crown of the personality.