Why the Religious Will Perish with the Unbelievers

[jsanford108]

Faith alone means just what it says. No laws, no rules, no religion. Now any fool knows that Catholicism is NOT faith alone. You must maintain your salvation. [\QUOTE] I agree. Catholic's do not ascribe to faith alone. I never said we do.




There are many scripture that tell us we are justified by faith alone.

"But to him that does no works, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his Faith is counted for righteousness" Romans 4:5.

Hebrews 4:10 is about the believer resting in the work and the person of Jesus Christ.

"For he that has entered into rest. HE ALSO HAS CEASED FROM HIS OWN WORKS, as God did from his, Hebrews 4:10.

Can you cease from your works? Of course not because your salvation is dependent upon them.

Hebrews 4:3 says that if you don't cease from your works and enter into his rest, you are under his wrath.

I have entered into his rest because I am already complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10. But you have not entered into his rest because you are trying to be good enough to be saved.

You need to scrap your Catholic religion and trust in Christ alone. If you don't you will find yourself in the "Lord, Lord, didn't we" group in hell, Matthew 7:21-23.

If you want to debate faith alone doctrine, that is fine. However, the Scriptures you provided do not in any way support faith alone. Hebrews 4:10, for example. Hebrews 4 is speaking of refuge and rest in Christ. Mainly, one could say it is about "trusting Christ" and His Divine Plan. Nowhere in the entirety of Hebrews is the phrase "faith alone" found.

I am not trying to be "good enough" to be saved. I am sustaining my faith by following the commands of Christ. If I trust Him, I should obey Him. "You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith alone." (James 2:24)

Also, how do you know who will be in hell? Paul, himself, said that no one could judge until the Lord came (1 Corinthians 4). He was not even worthy to judge himself. So how are you fit to judge anymore than Paul?

 

[jsanford108]

That's just 10 of my reasons. I do have more. Thank you for asking.


Well, you raise a fair point, and I am surprised that the Google book search has the usage of the two words about level-pegging throughout the decades.

But I don't feel the need to defend the word atheist. It is an accurate description of the way I live my life, but I don't like to define myself in terms of the religious delusions of others.

The term atheist probably has a lingering bad rap in the US because McCarthyism associated 'atheist' with 'communist'. It seems to me that 'unbeliever' is used more deliberately as a pejorative term by religious enthusiasts.

Stuart

If you seek discussion/debate, I would be happy to discuss the reasons you provided, as well as any that you wished to add. If such debate is sought, I can assure I will be as honest and forthcoming as I can be. I can also assure that I will be fair and respectful to your points and arguments.

As for defense of the word "atheist," I believe, as do you, that it is unnecessary. It is, as any word, a label for classifying a set of beliefs/the absence of beliefs. I do not believe the word has a bad rap, especially in modern society. Sure, most communists are atheists, but not all atheists are communists. Bill Maher, for example, is an atheist which I enjoy listening to. Definitely not a Commie.

So, if you seek a discussion on the merits of theism vs atheism, I welcome it. And I think your ten reasons are an excellent listing of arguments against theism, specifically Christianity.

 

[jsanford108]

Regardless, nothing. Get your facts straight.

Well stated.

 

[Robert Pate]

If you want to debate faith alone doctrine, that is fine. However, the Scriptures you provided do not in any way support faith alone. Hebrews 4:10, for example. Hebrews 4 is speaking of refuge and rest in Christ. Mainly, one could say it is about "trusting Christ" and His Divine Plan. Nowhere in the entirety of Hebrews is the phrase "faith alone" found.

I am not trying to be "good enough" to be saved. I am sustaining my faith by following the commands of Christ. If I trust Him, I should obey Him. "You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith alone." (James 2:24)

Also, how do you know who will be in hell? Paul, himself, said that no one could judge until the Lord came (1 Corinthians 4). He was not even worthy to judge himself. So how are you fit to judge anymore than Paul?

salvation is by faith alone because it is by Christ alone. Jesus is the one that fulfilled God's holy law, Matthew 5:18. Jesus is the one that atoned for our sins and the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. We are perfect and complete in him, Colossians 2:10.

 

[jsanford108]

salvation is by faith alone because it is by Christ alone. Jesus is the one that fulfilled God's holy law, Matthew 5:18. Jesus is the one that atoned for our sins and the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. We are perfect and complete in him, Colossians 2:10.

Please, provide us the verse that says "salvation is by faith alone." Or even just a passage that clearly implies that.

How is anyone "perfect?" Colossians 2:10 does say "complete in him," but not "perfect." Perfection implies "without sin," no? Utilizing your verse provided from 1 John 2, Christ did propitiate for our sins, but not "atone." Atone means : 1. to make reparation for a wrong or injury. 2.(in religious contexts) reparation or expiation for sin. 3.the reconciliation of God and humankind through Jesus Christ. (source: dictionary)

If you believe that Christ paid the penalty for every single individual, then we are all going to heaven, for all of our sins have been atoned for. Which means that you calling people to convert to Pateism is also pointless.

 

[Robert Pate]

Please, provide us the verse that says "salvation is by faith alone." Or even just a passage that clearly implies that.

How is anyone "perfect?" Colossians 2:10 does say "complete in him," but not "perfect." Perfection implies "without sin," no? Utilizing your verse provided from 1 John 2, Christ did propitiate for our sins, but not "atone." Atone means : 1. to make reparation for a wrong or injury. 2.(in religious contexts) reparation or expiation for sin. 3.the reconciliation of God and humankind through Jesus Christ. (source: dictionary)

If you believe that Christ paid the penalty for every single individual, then we are all going to heaven, for all of our sins have been atoned for. Which means that you calling people to convert to Pateism is also pointless.

You, like most Catholics do not believe the Gospel. You do not believe that God has reconciled the whole world unto himself by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. You believe that is the job of the Catholic church. Nor do you believe that Jesus has victoriously defeated sin, death and the devil and is Lord, Revelation 19:16.

I feel sorry for you. You are without a savior and without hope.

 

[God's Truth]

You, like most Catholics do not believe the Gospel. You do not believe that God has reconciled the whole world unto himself by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. You believe that is the job of the Catholic church. Nor do you believe that Jesus has victoriously defeated sin, death and the devil and is Lord, Revelation 19:16.

I feel sorry for you. You are without a savior and without hope.

Are you kidding? We are not reconciled to Jesus until we are saved by him after we believe and obey.

 

[God's Truth]

salvation is by faith alone because it is by Christ alone. Jesus is the one that fulfilled God's holy law, Matthew 5:18. Jesus is the one that atoned for our sins and the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. We are perfect and complete in him, Colossians 2:10.

The only time faith alone is mentioned in the Bible is to tell us it is the only kind of faith that does not save.

 

[God's Truth]

An important point is that they must hear it from the Lord Himself and not trust the words of religious men, who proclaim one is saved by praying their words.

LA

Anyone can read and speak the scriptures.

 

[Robert Pate]

Are you kidding? We are not reconciled to Jesus until we are saved by him after we believe and obey.

You don't have the truth of the Gospel.

"God has ALREADY reconciled a world of lost sinners unto himself by Jesus Christ" 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

Maybe someday you will have a break through. Until then you are still in darkness.

 

[jamie]

You, like most Catholics do not believe the Gospel.

Why is that a problem?

Jesus spoke in parables so people wouldn't understand.

It has worked quite well.

 

[jsanford108]

You, like most Catholics do not believe the Gospel. You do not believe that God has reconciled the whole world unto himself by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. You believe that is the job of the Catholic church. Nor do you believe that Jesus has victoriously defeated sin, death and the devil and is Lord, Revelation 19:16.

I feel sorry for you. You are without a savior and without hope.

Do you see any issues in this quote? There is one glaring one. It is: you are wrong.

How do you purport to know more than I, about what I believe? I would argue that it is quite obvious from your above quotation that you have a gross inability to state what I believe. You also fail to grasp what Catholicism believes/teaches. Time and again, you make statements of falsehood. Time and again, I provide facts of what Catholicism believes/teaches. You do know Catholics celebrate Easter, right? So, when you claim,

Nor do you believe that Jesus has victoriously defeated sin, death and the devil and is Lord, Revelation 19:16.

that is a clear falsehood.

How about your claim:

You do not believe that God has reconciled the whole world unto himself by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19

Interesting, considering that that is the primary teaching surrounding doctrines on Christ. I guess we can chalk that up to another blatant falsehood.

But, I digress. Let us review my previous comment, [Please, provide us the verse that says "salvation is by faith alone." Or even just a passage that clearly implies that.

How is anyone "perfect?" Colossians 2:10 does say "complete in him," but not "perfect." Perfection implies "without sin," no? Utilizing your verse provided from 1 John 2, Christ did propitiate for our sins, but not "atone." Atone means : 1. to make reparation for a wrong or injury. 2.(in religious contexts) reparation or expiation for sin. 3.the reconciliation of God and humankind through Jesus Christ. (source: dictionary)] It appears, that you simply just avoided answering the questions posed that challenged your position. I would advise, rather than avoiding questions and making up claims of opponents' beliefs, to try and clear up your own arguments first. It would aid you in future engagements with opponents to Pateism, as well as, educate you on the clear inconsistencies and paradoxes within your doctrines.

Feel free to provide answers to the challenges I gave to your claims of faith alone and perfection/atonement.

 

[God's Truth]

You don't have the truth of the Gospel.

"God has ALREADY reconciled a world of lost sinners unto himself by Jesus Christ" 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

Maybe someday you will have a break through. Until then you are still in darkness.

The apostles have the gospel of RECONCILIATION. The apostles tell people to GET reconciled to God.

If all are already reconciled, then the apostles wouldn't say to get reconciled.

2 Corinthians 5:20 On Christ's behalf therefore we come as ambassadors, God, as it were, making entreaty through our lips: we, on Christ's behalf, beseech men to be reconciled to God.


According to your beliefs there is something wrong with Paul.

Now that you were shown the truth, will you give up your false beliefs?

 

[God's Truth]

Why is that a problem?

Jesus spoke in parables so people wouldn't understand.

It has worked quite well.

Jesus did that when he came to earth so that the cut off Jews could not get saved at that time, because Jesus came first for the Jews who already belonged to God. They were God's and now they had to go through Jesus to remain God's.

 

[jamie]

Jesus did that when he came to earth so that the cut off Jews could not get saved at that time, because Jesus came first for the Jews who already belonged to God. They were God's and now they had to go through Jesus to remain God's.

You just make up stuff as you go along, don't you?

 

[Samie]

Hearing and believing are not works that save or justify. Jesus is the savior we are saved by his works.

No one will be saved that does not hear and believe the Gospel. On the day of Pentecost over 8,000 Jews heard and believed Peter's Gospel and were saved, Acts 2:41 also Acts 4:4. Some of those Jews had participated in the crucifixion of Christ, Acts 2:36.

You are teaching in this forum that UNLESS a person first "hears & believes" he cannot be saved.

Can you please tell me how a person who is not yet saved, not yet PLUGGED IN to Christ - that is, NOT yet in Him Who is the ONLY Source of power, can have any power to "hear & believe"?

KJV Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

KJV 1 Corinthians 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

 

[Robert Pate]

The apostles have the gospel of RECONCILIATION. The apostles tell people to GET reconciled to God.

If all are already reconciled, then the apostles wouldn't say to get reconciled.

2 Corinthians 5:20 On Christ's behalf therefore we come as ambassadors, God, as it were, making entreaty through our lips: we, on Christ's behalf, beseech men to be reconciled to God.


According to your beliefs there is something wrong with Paul.

Now that you were shown the truth, will you give up your false beliefs?

You are not able to receive truth. 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19, is not something for us to do. This has already happened. God has ALREADY reconciled the world unto himself by Jesus Christ.

The scripture plainly says that "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself by Jesus Christ" 2 Corinthians 5:19.

You hear, but you are not able to comprehend and believe.

 

[Robert Pate]

You are teaching in this forum that UNLESS a person first "hears & believes" he cannot be saved.

Can you please tell me how a person who is not yet saved, not yet PLUGGED IN to Christ - that is, NOT yet in Him Who is the ONLY Source of power, can have any power to "hear & believe"?

KJV Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

KJV 1 Corinthians 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

People are born again by the word of God, which is the Gospel, 1 Peter 1:23.

Paul said that "THE GOSPEL IS THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION" Romans 1:16.

Why is it you cannot believe this simple truth?

 

[glorydaz]

People are born again by the word of God, which is the Gospel, 1 Peter 1:23.

Paul said that "THE GOSPEL IS THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION" Romans 1:16.

Why is it you cannot believe this simple truth?

The usual reason....PRIDE. :sigh:

 

[glorydaz]

You are not able to receive truth. 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19, is not something for us to do. This has already happened. God has ALREADY reconciled the world unto himself by Jesus Christ.

The scripture plainly says that "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself by Jesus Christ" 2 Corinthians 5:19.

You hear, but you are not able to comprehend and believe.

Indeed, God has done His part, now we must BE RECONCILED by hearing and believing the Gospel of Salvation.

It's why Paul says in verse 19 that He has committed to "us" (believers) the WORD OF RECONCILIATION (Gospel). Thus we are ambassadors for Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.​