why own a gun?

Nineveh

Merely Christian
Originally posted by aharvey
I wonder how the audience had changed over that several thousand(?) year span.

No need to wonder :)

God gave the Law through Moses, Jesus taught the same people (that being the Israelites aka His people) to follow the Law.

The OT recounts failures to do so as well as the NT.

How accurate are the descriptions of the early explorers?

The Bible was accurate enough to recount Nineveh when men had forgotten. This is not the thread to debate the accuracy of Scriptures. Perhaps you would like to start a thread?
 

brother Willi

New member
Originally posted by aharvey

I guess that makes them oh-for-two! By the way, sorry for continuously referring to you in the third person in this thread. I don't want to hijack this thread from you!

ummm

two-for-oh :D

the third person is fine with it

:thumb:
 

philosophizer

New member
Originally posted by brother Willi

:thumb:

:think: they loved me when i debated you:think:


We love you still. We just think you're talking crazy lately. Be encouraged that your words haven't passed quietly. But don't pride yourself for the ruckus or it won't last.
 

billygoat

How did I get such great kids??
LIFETIME MEMBER
Is this still about a believer owning a gun?
I carry a gun, but it's not because I am afraid...it's because I recognize that there are a lot of sick, depraved creeps in the world who wouldn't hesitate to cut my throat for a dollar, or becausae I look at them wrong. Or even worse, who would hurt my daughter or a child....Peter carried a sword...in today's world it would've been a .45......
 

billygoat

How did I get such great kids??
LIFETIME MEMBER
Is this still about a believer owning a gun?
I carry a gun, but it's not because I am afraid...it's because I recognize that there are a lot of sick, depraved creeps in the world who wouldn't hesitate to cut my throat for a dollar, or becausae I look at them wrong. Or even worse, who would hurt my daughter or a child....Peter carried a sword...in today's world it would've been a .45......
 

aharvey

New member
Originally posted by billygoat

Is this still about a believer owning a gun?
I carry a gun, but it's not because I am afraid...it's because I recognize that there are a lot of sick, depraved creeps in the world who wouldn't hesitate to cut my throat for a dollar, or becausae I look at them wrong. Or even worse, who would hurt my daughter or a child....Peter carried a sword...in today's world it would've been a .45......

You carry a gun because you are afraid of what would happen if one of those sick, depraved creeps decided to do you or yours harm. You're not afraid because you have a gun. Feeling as you do about those sick, depraved creeps, how would you feel if you had to get rid of your gun?
 

Turbo

Caped Crusader
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Originally posted by aharvey

...Certainly not as inaccurate as Turbo claiming that Jesus instructing his disciples to get a couple of swords showed that He supports the use of weaponry in self-defence...
I didn't say that.

Here's what I actually said:

But clearly Jesus did not think it was immoral to arm one's self with a sword, right? He told them earlier that day to get swords.
aharvey, if owning and carrying a weapon is sinful, Jesus would not have instructed anyone to do it.

But I also know that Jesus does not condemn killing someone in self defense because He is God, He upheld the Old Testament as the authoritative word of God, and there we find this, for example:
  • If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed. If the sun has risen on him, there shall be guilt for his bloodshed. Exodus 22:2-3a
 

billygoat

How did I get such great kids??
LIFETIME MEMBER
Originally posted by aharvey

You carry a gun because you are afraid of what would happen if one of those sick, depraved creeps decided to do you or yours harm. You're not afraid because you have a gun. Feeling as you do about those sick, depraved creeps, how would you feel if you had to get rid of your gun?

You err, my friend. You think because I choose to use common sense by arming myself, I am afraid. I carry a gun because it makes sense.

If I had to get rid of my gun??? I don't know how that would ever happen. Like the old saying says...I'll give up my gun when they pry it out of my cold, dead hand...or something like that.

It's not about fear, though. It simply makes sense to take reasonable precautions, don't ya think? Maybe you are afraid....of guns...which would be an irrational fear, in my opinion.
 

aharvey

New member
Originally posted by Turbo

I didn't say that.

Here's what I actually said:

Oops, sorry about that! Right guy, wrong example. I was actually thinking of your claim that when Jesus said, later that same day, "He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword," he was showing his support for the death penalty!

Originally posted by Turbo

aharvey, if owning and carrying a weapon is sinful, Jesus would not have instructed anyone to do it.

I think this is too simplistic. He didn't tell them to get a couple of swords for reasons that had anything to do with owning swords, as Sozo pointed out. But I understand the lengths one can go to rationalize one's position. Or maybe this is just a considerable extrapolation "If Jesus had a problem with killing in self-defense, he would never have had his disciples get two and only two swords to make them technically criminals." Sorry, it's a little thin.

Originally posted by Turbo

But I also know that Jesus does not condemn killing someone in self defense because He is God, He upheld the Old Testament as the authoritative word of God, and there we find this, for example:
  • If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed. If the sun has risen on him, there shall be guilt for his bloodshed. Exodus 22:2-3a

Yeah, yeah, heard it all before. Everything in the OT stands as exactly right unless Jesus explicitly made a point to correct it, and the Gospel-writers happened to remember to put that in when they wrote the Gospels, er, how long after the fact was it? But there's room for error even the infallible OT if you need it to be. (Here I just can't get past God trotting all the animals past Adam because He thought Adam needed a wife, and only after that was unsuccessful, did He whip up Eve. Even bob b thinks that story might be garbled, which shouldn't really be possible in an inerrant document). This is such a limited view. It saves you from having to contemplate what might really really be expected of you; if it ain't explicitly in the Book, it ain't worth considering, and there sure are a lot of quotes in the Book. It's easy to do a little quote-mining to prop up your point of view. But in general, and in this thread in particular, it just feels too much like you're filtering Scriptures to accomodate your personal views, rather than adjusting your personal views to accomodate Scripture.
 

aharvey

New member
Originally posted by billygoat

You err, my friend. You think because I choose to use common sense by arming myself, I am afraid. I carry a gun because it makes sense.

fear n.. a feeling of anxiety and agitation caused by the presence or nearness of danger, evil, pain, etc.

You've acknowledged the danger, evil, pain, etc. part. Since it sounds like you'll never be without your handy portable security device, I guess we may never know if your perception of the nearness of evildoers causes you any anxiety or agitation. It's funny, though, that you won't even acknowledge the possibility that your gun relieves your sense and agitation caused by the presence or nearness of danger, evil, pain, etc.

Originally posted by billygoat

If I had to get rid of my gun??? I don't know how that would ever happen. Like the old saying says...I'll give up my gun when they pry it out of my cold, dead hand...or something like that.

Yeah, that sounds like cool, rational, emotionless common sense talking! You can't even consider the hypothetical possibility.

Originally posted by billygoat

It's not about fear, though. It simply makes sense to take reasonable precautions, don't ya think? Maybe you are afraid....of guns...which would be an irrational fear, in my opinion.

Well here's the ironic thing, billygoat. I was robbed by a couple drunk teenagers and ended up with a 30.06 bullet in my skull for my troubles. I have a bit more direct knowledge about those "sick, depraved creeps" AND about the dangers of a gun than you, and I don't think you could really call any fear of guns I might have had irrational. But having overcome this particular incident has given me a pretty solid perspective on both the creeps and the lengths one should go to protect yourself against them. I'm not afraid of guns, it's how they distort the reality of people on both sides of the law that use them that bothers me. But I don't lose any sleep over it. Irrational fear is what causes you to limit your life on the one-in-a-million chance that you run into such a creep, and to adopt extreme measures that could cause you to do the thing you least want others to do to you! The gun gives you the sense that you have more control over your life than you really do. That may make you feel better, but it's not common sense, it's an attempt to deal with fear.

Whatever. I once had a girlfriend who did the whole forehead vein popping outta my cold dead hands thing when anyone said anything not positive about guns. She also said she realized that that there were all kinds of situations in which having the gun would not help here, that someone might accidentally get shot by that gun, or that it might get stolen and used in crimes, but that the sense of security it gave her was worth the risks. And it was her God-given right! Not a lot of room for introspection here...
 
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