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Why Evolution is real science - let's settle this "debate"!

ThisIsMyUserName

New member
160 posts later

160 posts later

Sooooooooooooooooooooo

what an utter disappointment!


There were a few feeble attempts to actually comment on my idea of setting up this conversation, but all of you pretty much chose to just hit the endless and pointless discussion regardless!



I'm going to remind you of my suggestion to first establish the terms and conditions before starting the fight.


Is there anyone interested in a proper, serious manner to handle this topic???









PS: There was no other place on TOL to put this in
 

JudgeRightly

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Administrator
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6days, you're the ONLY one of us who relies on straw men to make an "argument". I don't like being accused of something I haven't and don't do.

You "provided" a quote out-of-context to make it appear it said something it didn't and I corrected you on it. Pull the other one 6days... pull the other one.

Huh? Perhaps you need to go back a few posts and refresh your memory of who posted the link about the evolution of eyes, YOU brought it up (post #124); I made the mistake of playing along with your red herring.

Yeah, and what fisherman or astronomer wouldn't want that kind of vision?

Your religious beliefs are boring. "Goddidit!!!", and "Falldidit!!!", are placeholders for anything a creationist can't lie about.

If "in the beginning my-preferred-personally-constructed-deity created (X, Y, Z)", doesn't mean "Goddidit!!!" please explain what it DOES mean.
I'm going to go out on a limb here, and make a really bold statement.

YES! God Did It (tm). He did it (created), the Fall corrupted it (sin entered the world, and death came by sin), the Flood destroyed it (wiped out all but one family with a bunch of animals on a boat), He reconciled it (Jesus died on the cross to save mankind), and He will reward it (with life or death), but until then we have to deal with it (the effects of such a Flood event, such as hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, floods (though not on the same scale), tsunamis, volcanoes, meteorites, etc.), but that doesn't preclude studying it, learning about it, or making observations about it.

Evolutionists have no (yes, I repeat, ABSOLUTELY NO) secular theory, no, not even a hypothesis, of ORIGINS. Every theory they have starts with something already in existence.

- the origin of species for Darwin begins with species already in existence
- the origin of stars begins with the explosion of existing stars and with protostars
- the origin of genes that code for new proteins begins with modifying existing genes
- the origin of species by neo-Darwinism begins with existing complex reproducing life
- the origin of life on earth is increasingly seen as seeded from already existing alien life
- the origin of the universe is increasingly explained by appeals to the pre-existing multiverse.

We can debate what happened after the origin of anything all day long for forever, but unless there is a discussion on origins, there will never be any progress made.
 

6days

New member
Sooooooooooooooooooooo

what an utter disappointment!
There were a few feeble attempts to actually comment on my idea of setting up this conversation, but all of you pretty much chose to just hit the endless and pointless discussion regardless!
I'm going to remind you of my suggestion to first establish the terms and conditions before starting the fight.
Is there anyone interested in a proper, serious manner to handle this topic???

PS: There was no other place on TOL to put this in
Ok... I think a good starting point is to agree on terminology. But, the problem starts with the title of this thread. The word 'evolution' is too rubbery. (As other words evolutionists use such as 'vestgial' and 'species').

Could we agree a better title of the thread would be 'Why evolutionism and creationism are not real science'?
 

Greg Jennings

New member
Barbarian observes:
And since a lot of creationists now admit that evolution is a fact, he's focusing on something he hopes will not be demonstrated. The idea is to find something that can't be tested. This is typical of creationists: They do not want their ideas put to the test, so they define the debate out of existence. Hence Stipe's attempt to redefine evolution.
See Stipe's dodging when asked to explain or provide hydroplate physics
 

6days

New member
Sooooooooooooooooooooo

what an utter disappointment!


There were a few feeble attempts to actually comment on my idea of setting up this conversation, but all of you pretty much chose to just hit the endless and pointless discussion regardless!



I'm going to remind you of my suggestion to first establish the terms and conditions before starting the fight.


Is there anyone interested in a proper, serious manner to handle this topic???









PS: There was no other place on TOL to put this in

Why not look in on the thread more frequently yourself trying to steer thread in direction you wish with your comments and questions?
 

eleos

New member
1. Evolution does not fit the strict definition of science. It can not be repeated or measured.
2. To observe evolution in the past is extremely difficult because of the unknown variables that may have been present in the past.

It is called the "theory of evolution" ... that's what it is .... a theory.

Either believe in millions of random occurrences or divine design.

In general, nothing wrong with theories, but that is what it is. Theory.

Again ......... It can not be repeated or measured.
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
Ok... I think a good starting point is to agree on terminology. But, the problem starts with the title of this thread. The word 'evolution' is too rubbery. (As other words evolutionists use such as 'vestgial' and 'species').

Could we agree a better title of the thread would be 'Why evolutionism and creationism are not real science'?

There's a big problem with terminology. Terms can never be agreed upon. It's like one person speaking only Latin having a debate with another who speaks only Chinese. Terms have inherently different definitions.

Evolutionists/OECs equate evolution with "change" of any kind. To them, the fact that change occurs at all means that evolution of all types are not only possible, but inevitable and virtually unlimited.
YECs do not deny change. In fact, we embrace it; but on a different scale. We also embrace stasis and limitation. We believe in adaptation, survival of the fittest, and natural selection; but not according to evolutionary theory.

Example: YECs must insist on using the word "kind" (miyn) in favour of species or another of the taxonomic divisions in debate. If evolutionists think they would like to enlighten us, let them do it in our language or not at all. When we enter their realm of understanding, we will do the same.

The same is true with the geologic column. We should always use the adjective "supposed" or "alleged" in front of Cambrian or Devonian so they will understand we think their words are meaningless.

Evolution is too rubbery - elastic for YECs, but solid ground for evolutionists. YECs need to understand that they think of it as any kind of change and, according to them, change is the only thing that stays the same.
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Sooooooooooooooooooooo

what an utter disappointment!


There were a few feeble attempts to actually comment on my idea of setting up this conversation, but all of you pretty much chose to just hit the endless and pointless discussion regardless!



I'm going to remind you of my suggestion to first establish the terms and conditions before starting the fight.


Is there anyone interested in a proper, serious manner to handle this topic???









PS: There was no other place on TOL to put this in

You completely ignored my on-topic and responsive posts. :idunno:
 

ThisIsMyUserName

New member
Ok... I think a good starting point is to agree on terminology. But, the problem starts with the title of this thread. The word 'evolution' is too rubbery. (As other words evolutionists use such as 'vestgial' and 'species').

Could we agree a better title of the thread would be 'Why evolutionism and creationism are not real science'?

Well, actually you were among the few who responded initially.
I don't want to actively "steer" the discussion, the whole purpose is for the discussion to be completely open.


Firstly, I'm rather shocked that you'd be happy to agree that creationism isn't science, are you sure that wasn't a typo on your part?

Second, absolutely, determining definitions is tricky. That's why I'm glad to adjust the definition of evolution to suit your and other ppl's comments. However I'd prefer not to alter the title itself, since it is actually the very point of the thread :)
 

Jose Fly

New member
Evolutionists/OECs equate evolution with "change" of any kind.
You should know better by now....I mean, how long have you been at this?

Evolution is heritable changes in a population over time. If I get a mutation in one of my skin cells, or if I get a mutation in a germ line cell but don't have kids, neither of those are evolution even though something has changed. Plus with the latter, it's not evolution because the change had no effect on the population.

To them, the fact that change occurs at all means that evolution of all types are not only possible, but inevitable and virtually unlimited.
Again, you should know better by now.

As Barbarian has posted here countless times, the fact that we don't see transitional fossils between certain taxa is good evidence for common ancestry. We don't see horses with wings, snakes with insect antennae, or humans with chloroplasts, and no one expects such things either.

The reason why the fossil record is interpreted through an evolutionary framework is twofold. First, evolution is a fact. We see populations evolve all the time, every day. We both fight against it (antibiotic resistance) and exploit it (domestication). Every single new trait, ability, genetic sequence, and species we've ever seen come about has done so via evolution. We've literally never seen any other process produce those things, no matter where we look, what experiments we carry out, or what population we study. So when we look at the fossil record, it's reasonable to conclude that the same processes that produce traits, abilities, and species today also did so in the past. It's no different than if we see an island made up of volcanic rock, we conclude that it came to be via volcanism.

The second reason we interpret the fossil record through an evolutionary framework is because it works. As Barbarian has described, it explains why we see the transitionals we have and why we don't find ones that aren't expected. It even tells us where they should be found (biogeography).

Now, given your proclivity to fundamentalism, no one expects you to be an "evolutionist". But at the very least, given the amount of time you've spent on this subject, is it unreasonable to expect you to at least have an accurate understanding of it?
 

Greg Jennings

New member
You mean the posts you refused to consider? They're still right where I left them. :up:

And where is that, I ask for the 4th time?


Prediction: you will dodge, and edit my post to make it look good on yourself to those not paying close attention to our convo. I feel bad (I really do) that the favor of a few online souls is enough for you to sin over. Just don't be dishonest. I have asked you 4 times WHERE your informative posts are so that I too can have a looksee. You have never once told me
 

6days

New member
Firstly, I'm rather shocked that you'd be happy to agree that creationism isn't science, are you sure that wasn't a typo on your part?
Nope...it was not a typo. :) Creationism and evolutionism (Advocacy of common ancestry / Darwinism) are beliefs about the past. Both belief systems have the exact same data.
Second, absolutely, determining definitions is tricky. That's why I'm glad to adjust the definition of evolution to suit your and other ppl's comments.
It's almost better to avoid the word entirely since evolutionists can't help but equivocate the word from observational science / adaptation, to their belief that 'bacteria' evolved into biologists. IOW, there are is more precise terminology that can be used.
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Evolution is heritable changes in a population over time.
Nope.

Evolution is the idea that organisms are all descended from a common ancestor by means of random mutations and natural selection.

Darwinists want everything to be evolution.

The favor of a few online souls is enough for you to sin over. Just don't be dishonest. I have asked you 4 times WHERE your informative posts are so that I too can have a looksee. You have never once told me

:rotfl:

You're an idiot.
 

Silent Hunter

Well-known member
6days, you're the ONLY one of us who relies on straw men to make an "argument". I don't like being accused of something I haven't and don't do.

You "provided" a quote out-of-context to make it appear it said something it didn't and I corrected you on it. Pull the other one 6days... pull the other one.

Huh? Perhaps you need to go back a few posts and refresh your memory of who posted the link about the evolution of eyes, YOU brought it up (post #124); I made the mistake of playing along with your red herring.

Yeah, and what fisherman or astronomer wouldn't want that kind of vision?

Your religious beliefs are boring. "Goddidit!!!", and "Falldidit!!!", are placeholders for anything a creationist can't lie about.

If "in the beginning my-preferred-personally-constructed-deity created (X, Y, Z)", doesn't mean "Goddidit!!!" please explain what it DOES mean.
I'm going to go out on a limb here, and make a really bold statement.
Yeah, that's pretty much all creationists do... make "bold" statements.

YES! God Did It (tm). He did it (created), the Fall corrupted it (sin entered the world, and death came by sin), the Flood destroyed it (wiped out all but one family with a bunch of animals on a boat), He reconciled it (Jesus died on the cross to save mankind), and He will reward it (with life or death), but until then we have to deal with it (the effects of such a Flood event, such as hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, floods (though not on the same scale), tsunamis, volcanoes, meteorites, etc.), but that doesn't preclude studying it, learning about it, or making observations about it.
Your religious beliefs are boring. "Goddidit!!!", and "Falldidit!!!", are placeholders for anything a creationist can't lie about or make up stories about.

Evolutionists have no (yes, I repeat, ABSOLUTELY NO) secular theory, no, not even a hypothesis, of ORIGINS. Every theory they have starts with something already in existence.

- the origin of species for Darwin begins with species already in existence
- the origin of stars begins with the explosion of existing stars and with protostars
- the origin of genes that code for new proteins begins with modifying existing genes
- the origin of species by neo-Darwinism begins with existing complex reproducing life
- the origin of life on earth is increasingly seen as seeded from already existing alien life
- the origin of the universe is increasingly explained by appeals to the pre-existing multiverse.

We can debate what happened after the origin of anything all day long for forever, but unless there is a discussion on origins, there will never be any progress made.
The biggest problem creationists have is their inability to say 3.5 little words, "I don't know".

"I don't know" is the very beginning of science.

There once was a time when the source of thunder and lightning (to name but two) was unknown. Instead of saying, "I don't know, but I sure would like to find out", their answer was, "Goddidit!!!"

As with thunder and lightning the present understanding of "origins" (as outlined by JR above) is, "I don't know, but I sure would like to find out".

Instead, creationists would rather shortcut the discovery process and proclaim, "Goddidit!!!"

Anything creationists can't understand they declare it to be too complex to have occurred naturally, so the only POSSIBLE explanation MUST be, "Goddidit!!!"

As our knowledge advanced we discovered the "origin" of thunder, lightning, and countless other natural processes once relegated to, "Goddidit!!!"

As human knowledge increases the "gaps" left for, "Goddidit!!!", to occupy become smaller and smaller.

I am confident that someday human understanding will be able to answer JR's "origin" questions and, "Goddidit!!!" will be cast into the trash never again to be used to in place of, "I don't know (but I sure would like to find out)".



Hey, 6days,

If "in the beginning my-preferred-personally-constructed-deity created (X, Y, Z)", doesn't mean "Goddidit!!!" please explain what it DOES mean.
 
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