Who died on the cross? - a Hall of Fame thread.

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Mystery

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Well, scripture says Christ was a man, so I believe he was a man.
Here is what I stated early in this thread...

Jesus had the body of a man, just as real as you and I. He suffered and died in that body. In His "body" He was just as much a man as you and I, but I am not just a body, and Jesus did not take on a new persona of someone who did not pre-exist; a "fully" man nature co-existing with His Divine nature. He was God manifested in a body of flesh, and bone, and blood, etc; in ALL respects a man's body that was prepared for Him.
 

godrulz

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Well, scripture says Christ was a man, so I believe he was a man.

I'm not so sure that I buy into him having two minds, two wills, two sets of emotions. I believe I am basically in agreement with Mystery.


I'm not sure saying he is one person with two natures is saying he has two minds and two sets of emotions (multiple personality disorder?).
 

godrulz

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Here is what I stated early in this thread...

Jesus had the body of a man, just as real as you and I. He suffered and died in that body. In His "body" He was just as much a man as you and I, but I am not just a body, and Jesus did not take on a new persona of someone who did not pre-exist; a "fully" man nature co-existing with His Divine nature. He was God manifested in a body of flesh, and bone, and blood, etc; in ALL respects a man's body that was prepared for Him.

This sounds like less to quibble about. Sometimes, as you have noted, you don't always communicate clearly. Now we are getting nuanced, not diametrically opposed/mutually exclusive.
 

SaulToPaul 2

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Here is what I stated early in this thread...

Jesus had the body of a man, just as real as you and I. He suffered and died in that body. In His "body" He was just as much a man as you and I, but I am not just a body, and Jesus did not take on a new persona of someone who did not pre-exist; a "fully" man nature co-existing with His Divine nature. He was God manifested in a body of flesh, and bone, and blood, etc; in ALL respects a man's body that was prepared for Him.

No, I believe the only "persona" Jesus had was that of the Son of God who has
always existed.
 

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In order for Jesus to have a newly created human soul, He would have to have two minds, two wills, and two sets of emotions, as well as two identities. He would be someone who did not pre-exist, where this "fusion" they suggest dissolves at the cross where God the Son does not experience death, but only His human aspect does. This makes Jesus into two different people during that event.
This has been explained to you before, but you won't carefully try to reason through it.

There were not two “self-consciousnesses” within Christ Incarnate. The Person of the Incarnation was self-consciously divine and consciously human. Incarnate Christ possessed a human will. The human will was distinct from the divine will, though not opposite, but in subjection to it (John 6:38; Luke 22:42).

Your view reduces the incarnation to divinity in a biological body. There is no value of atonement from this perspective. Our humanity comprises more than our body, but also our soul. You reduce the Atonement to just a biological event.

Moreover, as I stated here,
our Lord clearly labeled Himself fully human, and was speaking as a fully human, when he said “a man who has told you the truth” in John 8:40.

No amount of straining can twist this verse to imply that the “man” in view here is strictly a biological male. Biology does not speak, “has told” or tell anyone “the truth”. If Sozo/Mystery's view is allowed to stand, the phrase would literally read: “a person of the male sex who has told you the truth”. One need only stop the next time they say to someone, “I’m a man, and I am going to….” Ask yourselves if you are referring to your mere sexual identification or to your full humanity.


The one divine Second Person of the Trinity, who possessed a divine nature from eternity, assumed a human nature, and now has both in Heaven.
 

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Well, scripture says Christ was a man, so I believe he was a man.

I'm not so sure that I buy into him having two minds, two wills, two sets of emotions. I believe I am basically in agreement with Mystery.

Here is what I stated early in this thread...

Jesus had the body of a man, just as real as you and I. He suffered and died in that body. In His "body" He was just as much a man as you and I, but I am not just a body, and Jesus did not take on a new persona of someone who did not pre-exist; a "fully" man nature co-existing with His Divine nature. He was God manifested in a body of flesh, and bone, and blood, etc; in ALL respects a man's body that was prepared for Him.

Bottom line, then, is that you both believe Christ possessed no human soul. Mystery's "new persona of someone who did not pre-exist" is simply denying the presence of a human soul in the Incarnation. That's Appollinarianism, pure and simple.
 
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This sounds like less to quibble about. Sometimes, as you have noted, you don't always communicate clearly. Now we are getting nuanced, not diametrically opposed/mutually exclusive.
On the contrary, do not be fooled by the wording being used. The key issue is whether or not incarnate Christ possessed a human soul. Mystery, and now STP deny this.

They also fail to grasp the significant distinctions between 'person' and 'nature' that have been clearly elaborated upon and links cited for personal study.
 

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I'm not sure saying he is one person with two natures is saying he has two minds and two sets of emotions (multiple personality disorder?).
It does not and they fail to grasp the distinctions between person and nature. STP will go read the sources previously given to understand them. Mystery will continue to remain entrenched, unwilling to consider alternatives.
 

Mystery

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AMR holds to the heretical idea that Jesus had a human soul that functioned in supremacy over His eternal divine soul while Jesus died on the cross, therefore giving Jesus two minds, two wills, and two completely different personas. According to AMR, God the Son did not die on the cross for your sins, but some newly created persona that suffered and died for you while God went on vacation.
 

SaulToPaul 2

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AMR,

Was the Son separated from the Father in hades for 3 days/nights? Or just the human soul of Jesus?

The process of dying on the cross wasn't death, but separation from the Father was death...the wages of sin is the latter.
 

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AMR holds to the heretical idea that Jesus had a human soul that functioned in supremacy over His eternal divine soul while Jesus died on the cross, therefore giving Jesus two minds, two wills, and two completely different personas. According to AMR, God the Son did not die on the cross for your sins, but some newly created persona that suffered and died for you while God went on vacation.
Proof that you are either unwilling or incapable of reading the content herein, preferring instead to resort to mis-characterizations. You have painted yourself into an Appollinarian corner and now entrench yourself rather than humbly admitting your error and restoring yourself with the body of the church.

The self-consciousness of Christ was always divine, and the human consciousness could never act out of discord with the divine self-consciousness.

Go back and carefully read the full content of post shown above.
 

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AMR,

Was the Son separated from the Father in hades for 3 days/nights? Or just the human soul of Jesus?

The process of dying on the cross wasn't death, but separation from the Father was death...the wages of sin is the latter.
As discussed here and previously.
 

Mystery

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12. So who died then at Galgotha? In every way we understand and speak of death, the man Jesus Christ died. Did God die that day? Of course not. To speak of God dying is to speak a no-thing, for God cannot die.
There you go, denying that God the Son died on the cross. You have to remove God the Son and His persona from the "man" and his persona, to justify your position.

God the Son experienced death on a cross for our sins. If not, then no one is saved.
 

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You cannot have a soul without a persona.
What does this even mean?

Do you think souls pre-exist before human beings are born? I assume you do not. There is no "Soul Guff".

When does a soul get created? I have no idea. I like to think the soul is created at the quantum moment in time that the human zygote is formed at conception. Thus we have a biological and the spiritual union that creates the human Person still in the womb.

A person is a nature with something added, namely, independent subsistence, individuality.

Nature used when discussing the Incarnation is “a complex of attributes”. Nature never means ‘person’ when discussing the Incarnation.

God the Son did not subtract from His Person when incarnated. He took on a fully human nature comprising a body and a soul. God the Son did not take on a fully human Person, for then two Persons would exist in the one body of Jesus.

The human nature has its subsistence in His Person, and the human nature has a glory and excellence given it. Yet the human nature gives nothing at all to the nature and Person of the divine Word, the Son of God.

Hence, the Person of God the Son was not subsumed by that human nature, for the union of human and divine natures of the Incarnation, while indissoluble, cannot be mixed, separated, confused, or divided for to do any of these things is to fall into numerous biblical errors.

As I have stated many times in this thread, the Person of God the Son, comprised the self-consciousness of the Incarnate Christ. The human will of the Incarnate Christ never acted out of discord with the divine self-consciousness.
 

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There you go, denying that God the Son died on the cross. You have to remove God the Son and His persona from the "man" and his persona, to justify your position.

God the Son experienced death on a cross for our sins. If not, then no one is saved.
I hope this is not how you craft your beliefs, that is, by locking into one item, stopping there, and then ignoring any surrounding context. Yours is the perfect example of lifting something out of its wholeness to build a straw man.

Anyone reading the entire post will clearly see how you like to twist things around to suit your purposes.

Also, please review previous post above, wherein I repeat earlier content on the aspects of 'person' and 'nature'.

Finally, you keep dropping 'persona' around as if it is commonly understood what you mean. Your track record is such that no one should assume anything about what you mean by the term. So do us all a favor and define 'persona' very, very, clearly.
 

Mystery

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What does this even mean?
Man has a body, soul, and spirit (the spirit may be subject to whether or not one is in Christ, but that is another debate). The identity of a man is in the soul. His individual personhood (that which separates him from other individuals) is within the soul.

Do you think souls pre-exist before human beings are born?
Of course not.
When does a soul get created? I have no idea. I like to think the soul is created at the quantum moment in time that the human zygote is formed at conception. Thus we have a biological and the spiritual union that creates the human Person still in the womb.
Agreed.

A person is a nature with something added, namely, independent subsistence, individuality
You cannot have a human soul without having an individual "person".

Nature used when discussing the Incarnation is “a complex of attributes”. Nature never means ‘person’ when discussing the Incarnation.
The nature of Jesus is divine, not human. He does not have two souls. You cannot have a "nature" without a soul.

God the Son did not subtract from His Person when incarnated.
Agreed.
He took on a fully human nature comprising a body and a soul.
Then He would also have to become a new person, making Him a pre-existing individual, and a non pre-existing individual. Two individuals in one body.
God the Son did not take on a fully human Person, for then two Persons would exist in the one body of Jesus.
That's what you are trying to make us believe He did.

The human nature has its subsistence in His Person, and the human nature has a glory and excellence given it. Yet the human nature gives nothing at all to the nature and Person of the divine Word, the Son of God.
There is no human nature unless you have a newly created soul which requires a whole new person and a whole new identity.


Hence, the Person of God the Son was not subsumed by that human nature, for the union of human and divine natures of the Incarnation, while indissoluble, cannot be mixed, separated, confused, or divided for to do any of these things is to fall into numerous biblical errors.
Who died on the cross?

As I have stated many times in this thread, the Person of God the Son, comprised the self-consciousness of the Incarnate Christ. The human will of the Incarnate Christ never acted out of discord with the divine self-consciousness.

There cannot be two concious wills without two persons.
 

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Man has a body, soul, and spirit
There is no support for tripartism in the Scriptures. You (and other exchanged life proponents) have construed the only place all three are mentioned simultaneously, 1 Thess. 5:23 incorrectly, where they all actually mean personal aspects to which Paul is referring.

The duality of man is clear from Scripture, see James 2:26; 2 Cor. 7:1, Matthew 10:28) where spirit and soul are used interchangeably. God "breathed into his nostrils: the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Gen. 2:7. The "breath of life" is the principle of his life, and the "living soul" is the very being of man. The soul is united with and adapted to a body, but can, if need be, also exist without the body. In view of this we can speak of man as a spiritual being, and as also in that respect the image of God.

God’s image in humanity at creation, then, consisted in:
(a) existence as a “soul” or “spirit” (Gen. 2:7), that is, as personal and self-conscious, with a Godlike capacity for knowledge, thought, and action;
(b) being morally upright, a quality lost at the Fall but now being progressively restored in Christ (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10);
(c) dominion over the environment;
(d)the human body as the means through which we experience reality, express ourselves, and exercise dominion; and
(e) the God given capacity for eternal life.

You cannot have a human soul without having an individual "person".
You cannot have a Person that does not possess independent subsistence, as in the three Persons of the Trinity, or as in you or I. Necessarily that Person comprises a body and a soul and an independent subsistence<--this is a key aspect you are overlooking with respect to the Incarnation.

You or I, as wholly human beings, are not comprised as was Incarnate Christ. The Person, that which independently subsisted, of the Incarnation was God the Son. The human nature of the Incarnate Christ could not independently subsist without the union of the divine Son of God. If it could, then there would indeed be two Persons in the one body, but the Incarnation was not wholly analogous to our commonly understood notions of human existence. Indeed, the Incarnation is uniquely special (Amen!).

The nature of Jesus is divine, not human. He does not have two souls. You cannot have a "nature" without a soul.
It was both, divine and human. You are confusing Person (see above). Once you get your mind around the distinction between person and nature this will all fall into place for you.

Agreed. Then He would also have to become a new person, making Him a pre-existing individual, and a non pre-existing individual. Two individuals in one body.
Again, distinguish between person and nature. A person, like you or I, subsists separately. The human nature of Christ has not and never had a separate subsistence, thus it is impersonal. In the Incarnation of the God-man, the God the Son furnishes the Personhood (the personality).

Likewise, we need to understand that self-consciousness and self-determination do not belong to nature but to personality. Therefore, Incarnate Christ does not have two consciousnesses, only a single divine self-consciousness and a single human conscious. Moreover (another key distinction coming), the consciousness and will is not simply human, it is theanthropic--one personality uniting the divine and the human.

There is no human nature unless you have a newly created soul which requires a whole new person and a whole new identity.
Here as above, we must understand the differences between person and nature.

There cannot be two concious wills without two persons.
If two persons existed in a single body you would be correct. A single Person existed in Incarnate Christ. The will and the conscious of that Person was theanthropic.
 
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