Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So your answer is "yes," that the "good news" that "Christ died for our sins" is the same "good news" that "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God"?
ECT Which Gospel Preached During the Tribulation Period?
- Thread starter notreligus
- Start date
Nang
TOL Subscriber
This is the error of your false claims!
The grace of God has been proclaimed by a Godly remnant of believers, since the time of Abel! Their gospel was message was established upon the covenant of promise (of a Savior) given by God to Eve in the garden of Eden. (Genesis 3:15)
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
What Scriptures can you give to support this wild assertion?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
What "wild assertion?"
God commands men to believe in Him to live, and God commands men to repent and turn from sin in order to avoid death.
What Scriptures can you provide that teaches otherwise?
Nang
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
you said:
Whenever you read any Scripture verse that speaks of "believing God" in order to find life, you are reading a reiteration of the original commands given to Adam in the garden. You are reading a reiteration of Law.
Of course what you say does not receive any support from the Scriptures. The original command to Adam was to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and we both know that that has nothing to do with anyone receiving life today.
You prove that you will say anything, no matter how ridiculous, to defend the unscriptual idea that you gave earlier:
According to you we do not believe to get saved!
Evidently you believe that the Philippian jailer was given the wrong answer when he asked what he must do to be saved:
"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).
You should be ashamed of yourself for saying such a thing but instead you are proud of it!
I am convinced that few kinow what it is to beleve on the Lord Jesus Christ.
I see people coming to it but some will not continue.
I thought I knew once, but it all amounted to nothing compared to knowing the Father in Christ as They really are in nature.
Mankind is fallen and considers God to be like them in more ways than can fit on this board in writing, neither can He be known just through believing in words about the truth.
Jesus really enjoys simple things like playing with the grandchildren and nursing babes. That is where He really is.
The age to come will have no poker machines, gambling houses, brothels, prostitution, strong drink guzzling places, tanks and warplanes, etc. but there will be other simple things, many of which are here now, but mankind despises such simpliness of heart and mind.
Man likes to be more like satan than he realises, and plays religion thinking that will save him.
LA.
You simply cannot divorce the person and work of Christ. Hyperdispensationalists divide everything up excessively into hyper-boxes.
God cannot be separated from His character, attributes, ways.
The Lord Jesus Christ (person/who He is) is not diametrically opposed, mutually exclusive to what He does (work).
The JW view of what He does is deficient because they get who He is wrong. The gospel includes the person and work of Christ. It is a lame argument to presuppose two gospel theories by separating His identity from His work. This does not fly in the Gospels, Acts, nor Pauline writings.
MAD arguments are proof texted, preconceived, weak, erroneous.
So I am not crazy to be discombobulated about neo-MAD?
You must be the vocal minority of original MAD around here. I really don't get your views, but they are less off than neo-MAD.
Before I burn my bridges, what do you know about Merida, Mexico near Cancun? My wife wants to have a medical procedure done there. Is hurricane season over? Will we get diarrhea? I think it is removed from the border drug wars? What are you doing in Mexico again? What is the best way to get there from Western Canada? My power igloo will melt if we go by land or sea.
notreligus
New member
You need some sort of good hair treatment as your hairs are splitting.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
No, not yet.
No, but just make sure that you drink bottled water.
I am retired now but for fifteen years I was the owner and operator of a motel here in Mexico.
I really do not know much about Western Canada.
Thx. We are working towards Merida (Yucatan) late October. If you know anything about culture, site-seeing, cuisine, transportation, etc., fire away.
Some fly into Cancun, but I think we will go somewhere like Texas and then a direct flight to Merida.
I am 50. You may be older. Sorry for my part in disrespect or more heat than light. We both have strong convictions which can lead to conviction. Teachability and humility is a worthwhile goal for all of us.
Some fly into Cancun, but I think we will go somewhere like Texas and then a direct flight to Merida.
I am 50. You may be older. Sorry for my part in disrespect or more heat than light. We both have strong convictions which can lead to conviction. Teachability and humility is a worthwhile goal for all of us.
You are just confirming what I know you said. That is, that you believe the gospel of the grace of God to have been NEW in Paul. You can't see anything else as new testament or gospel?
No. Galatians 2:2 (NASB).
No. I believe it is possible to receive a revelation after being converted (believing). But I believe it was by preaching/revelation (hearing the word of God) that he first believed.
beloved57
Well-known member
jerry:
Gods elect do not believe to get saved. In acts 16:
31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Not, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt get saved ! But thou shalt be saved ! A big difference in stating a condition of getting saved, and following a command to indicate that one is being saved or in a saved state already.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ here is in the greek an imperative, and one does not get saved by obeying a command given to them, if so, then thats works salvation !
And I know Paul would not teach that ! Only the regenerated are given a command to believe on Jesus Christ 1 jn 3:
23And this is his commandment, That we [those born of God] should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
Gods elect do not believe to get saved. In acts 16:
31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Not, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt get saved ! But thou shalt be saved ! A big difference in stating a condition of getting saved, and following a command to indicate that one is being saved or in a saved state already.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ here is in the greek an imperative, and one does not get saved by obeying a command given to them, if so, then thats works salvation !
And I know Paul would not teach that ! Only the regenerated are given a command to believe on Jesus Christ 1 jn 3:
23And this is his commandment, That we [those born of God] should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
beloved57
Well-known member
Scriptures that evidence God's Sovereignty and predestination in salvation!
Scriptures that evidence God's Sovereignty and predestination in salvation!
The Gospel of the Kingdom of God during the tribulation, and at anytime for that matter, is a proclaiming of the predetermined and eternal counsel of God, and never what men ought to do: But what God has, and is doing to save His People.
Jesus preached the Gospel of the Kingdom here !
Jn 6:
37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Indicating all of a limited amount of people, those the Father Gave Him [ In election eph 1:4] shall come to me [ meaning, coming in Faith]
The phrase " shall come" denotes predestination ! They have been destined [chosen] to come, and so shall come !
And they are eternally secured by Him, none of them shall ever be cast out or separated from Him.
Jn 6:
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
No one can come to me is the same as no one can believe in me as their Saviour unless the Father draws him.
Coming to Christ is equated with believing in Him in Jn 6:
64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come [believe on me] unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
John 3:
27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
That kills freewill of man, a man cannot receive anything of God, except it be sovereignly given to him.
Is it true that some do or did not receive Jesus Christ ? as per Jn 1:
11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
The difference is that to some it had been given[from heaven] to receive Him, and to others it had not been given[from heaven] to receive Him.
Its just that simple !
Jn 10:
26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Why some did not believe into Jesus, simply because they were not of His Sheep, they are not suppose to believe in a Shepherd that was not their Shepherd.
How do we become Sheep ? Thats by the Sovereignty of God, He only makes the Sheep of His pasture ps 100:
3Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.
Man cannot choose to be of God's Sheep, of His People, He has to make us that way.
The psalmist says : It is He [ God] that hath made us !
or produced us ! To cause to exist, or to create !
The created do not assist or will to be created, thats why David says, He hath made us [sheep] and we not ourselves !
Very similar to eph 2:
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works
John 10:
16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
They [ The sheep of another fold] shall [ by predestination] hear my voice !
This refers to the gentile elect of God acts 15:
14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
All these above references pertain to Gods Sovereignty in salvation and application of that salvation to a select people.
Scriptures that evidence God's Sovereignty and predestination in salvation!
The Gospel of the Kingdom of God during the tribulation, and at anytime for that matter, is a proclaiming of the predetermined and eternal counsel of God, and never what men ought to do: But what God has, and is doing to save His People.
Jesus preached the Gospel of the Kingdom here !
Jn 6:
37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Indicating all of a limited amount of people, those the Father Gave Him [ In election eph 1:4] shall come to me [ meaning, coming in Faith]
The phrase " shall come" denotes predestination ! They have been destined [chosen] to come, and so shall come !
And they are eternally secured by Him, none of them shall ever be cast out or separated from Him.
Jn 6:
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
No one can come to me is the same as no one can believe in me as their Saviour unless the Father draws him.
Coming to Christ is equated with believing in Him in Jn 6:
64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come [believe on me] unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
John 3:
27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
That kills freewill of man, a man cannot receive anything of God, except it be sovereignly given to him.
Is it true that some do or did not receive Jesus Christ ? as per Jn 1:
11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
The difference is that to some it had been given[from heaven] to receive Him, and to others it had not been given[from heaven] to receive Him.
Its just that simple !
Jn 10:
26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Why some did not believe into Jesus, simply because they were not of His Sheep, they are not suppose to believe in a Shepherd that was not their Shepherd.
How do we become Sheep ? Thats by the Sovereignty of God, He only makes the Sheep of His pasture ps 100:
3Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.
Man cannot choose to be of God's Sheep, of His People, He has to make us that way.
The psalmist says : It is He [ God] that hath made us !
or produced us ! To cause to exist, or to create !
The created do not assist or will to be created, thats why David says, He hath made us [sheep] and we not ourselves !
Very similar to eph 2:
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works
John 10:
16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
They [ The sheep of another fold] shall [ by predestination] hear my voice !
This refers to the gentile elect of God acts 15:
14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
All these above references pertain to Gods Sovereignty in salvation and application of that salvation to a select people.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Why is it that Calvinists lack a basic understanding of how the sinner gets saved?
The Philippian jailer wanted to know what he must do to be saved, and he was told:
BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS AND THOU SHALT BE SAVED!!
That was a direct answer to his question asking how he could be saved but you say "Gods elect do not believe to get saved."
How can you be so foolish?
Here is another verse which
"For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe" (1 Cor.1:21).
TO SAVE THEM THAT BELIEVE!!
But you say that the elect are saved before they believe. It is obvious that you put more faith in what the Calvinists teach than you put in the Scriptures.
Here is a verse that demonstrates that everlasting life comes as a resuly of believing:
"Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting" (1 Tim.1:16).
You Calvinists are a waste of time because you just ignore the verses which do not fit your mistaken ideas. Here is another verse that you can ignore:
"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul" (Heb.10:39).
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I asked you:
"So you think that it was possible that he was baptized with water by Ananias and was filled with the Holy Spirit before he believed a gospel?"
To which you answered:
I agree that he received a gospel and received the Holy Spirit and was baptized sometime before Acts 9:17-18.
But you say that he received the gospel before his visit to Jerusalem, the same visit which is spoken of at Galatians 2:2:
"It was because of a revelation that I went up; and I submitted to them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but I did so in private to those who were of reputation, for fear that I might be running, or had run, in vain" (Gal.2:2; NASB).
That event did not happen until years after he was baptized with water and received the Holy Spirit.
Therefore we can understand that Paul received a gospel before he was baptized with water and then he received another gospel later.
That means that there were two different gospels.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I really do not know much about Merida. However, please allow me to give you some advice.
The threat of kidnapping for ransom is very real in Mexico. So do not do anything to draw attention to yourself. Stay as low profile as possible. Always travel together and do not go anyplace by yourself.
The chances of being kidnapped are very low but you should do everything possible to minimize that threat. Other than that, Mexico is a wonderful country and the people are super friendly.
Sorry for my disrespect as well.
In Galatians 2:2 he speaks of a revelation. He then mentioned the gospel (message/word) which he preaches among the Gentiles. There is no discussion of different gospels. I don't know when he was baptized. Your words are weird when you talk about receiving a gospel. Paul accepted what was preached to him and that is why we say he believed the gospel.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
No mention. What about these words?:
"But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter" (2 Cor.2:7).
At Galatians 1 Paul speaks of the gospel which he preached to those in the churches which he founded and he says that he received that gospel from the Lord Jesus for the express purpose to preach it among the Gentiles:
"But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ...But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the Gentiles" (Gal.1:11-12; 15-16).
We can understand that the gospel of which Paul is speaking is strictly for the Gentiles by his remarks later in the same epistle:
"And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain" (Gal.2:2).
If there were only "one" gospel then there would be absolutely no reason to specify that the gospel that he is speaking of is the one "which I preach among the Gentiles."
If the gospel he preached among the Gentiles was the same gospel which he preached among the Jews then why would he need to go to Jerusalem in order to consider its relationship to the gospel which he had preached earlier in the company of some of the Apostles (Acts 9:27-29)? Of course there would be no reason for him to do that if the gospel which he earlier preached with other apostles was the same one that he was preaching to the Gentiles.
Earlier you said that Paul received a gospel at his conversion. After receiving that gospel he went immediately into Damascus (Acts 9:6-8).
But he says that after he received a gospel directly from the Lord Jesus (which he preached to those at Galatia) he went "immediately into Arabia:
"But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus" (Gal.1:15-17).
He received the gospel which he preached unto the Jews on the Damascus road and then went immediately into Damascus.
Later he received another gospel for those of the uncircumcision and then he went immediately into Arabia.
Two different gospels!
I think you mean Galatians 2:7 (NASB):
But g235 ἀλλά alla
on the contrary, g5121 τοὐναντίον tounantion
seeing g3708 ὁράω horaō
that g3754 ὅτι hoti
I had been entrusted with g4100 πιστεύω pisteuō
the gospel g2098 εὐαγγέλιον euaggelion
to the uncircumcised, g203 ἀκροβυστία akrobystia
just as g2531 καθώς kathōs
Peter g4074 Πέτρος Petros
had been to the circumcised g4061 περιτομή peritomē
Note that the word gospel only shows up once. In the KJV the second occurance of the word gospel is in brackets, showing it has been added by the translators. The point is that in their ministry of proclaiming the gospel they were reaching primarily different people.
There is no mention of strictly for the Gentiles, only that he preached the gospel, his gospel to be more exact, among the Gentiles. After ministering to Jews, Paul ministered among the Gentiles ("we are turning to the Gentiles"). He even, though, took up a collection for the saints at Jerusalem (Romans 15).
Again, you have an understanding here whereby you are getting tripped up. You are obsessing on your idea of two gospels, so much so that these words take on special significance to you. Paul identifies the gospel he preached among the Gentiles for his audience (the Galatian church). His concern was that the words he used were consistent with the words being used among Jews. Meaning, there is one gospel, and even if different words or approach are used we need to make sure that the same content is being communicated. Paul had this concern, which is why he went up to Jerusalem.
Great question. His concern was that he was not making anything up of himself, but that the truth of what he was preaching would be known to all.
Think on this. If you say something and then say the same thing using different words, has your meaning changed? In a big world, Paul strove for unity and common corporate understanding.
He accepted the truth, from Jesus and from Ananias. A little different wording than receiving a gospel, but okay. When you say "received" I think you might be speaking of unique revelation or perhaps you are confused about what Paul "received" later. There is acceptance of truth and adoption of a message to be delivered. I believe what Paul received was of God, not an invention of man.
I'm not sure about this... you seem to be making the assumption that Paul's first revelation of the gospel was on the road to Damascus, rather than in Damascus when Ananias spoke with him. How would we know if Paul received the gospel at either time? Look to those words (Jesus and Ananias).
That is what you want to believe. But why should I make the same conclusion that you do? I'm not denying the verses... but think on this: When Paul said "we are turning to the Gentiles" did he already know what he was "going to preach to the Gentiles"? Are you saying he was then communicating to the Jews he was speaking with that he was going to be preaching a different message?!!! Why would he be bringing them (Gentiles) the same message he was preaching (Jews) IF IT WAS DIFFERENT? You are emphasizing it was not the same... but if it was not the same, then did he LIE to these Jews?! Paul submitted himself to evaluation, that his message would be not of himself, but of God. All of this to say that how you say what you say is important... and that understanding may come more quickly when the speaker/preacher has a knowledge of what brings that understanding. To the Gentiles, it was not the law, though he spoke of the law in Gentile lands. Paul pointed out, in Romans, that the Gentiles... their thoughts are alternately accusing or else defending them, and that these are a law of sorts in and of themself. So, Paul says he was not without the law of God. But someone versed in the law would understand when he says "according to the law, such and such". See, there are different ways to communicate something, but that doesn't change the gospel. There are different ways to communicate the gospel, and we desire to have a more perfect understanding as individuals and corporately. But, there is no guarantee that we will all understand things, or have the same experience, the same way. I don't have any problem with Paul preaching his gospel among the Gentiles. That does not mean to me that he was a lone wolf preaching new doctrine and starting a new church (a "new testament" one at that), as some would suppose. And, it would not mean that people are saved by primitive gospel as well as updated gospel. No, it is the same gospel preached to different people. Salvation in Christ, whether Jew or Gentile (Romans 1:16).