Where Does It Say In The Bible That You Go Directly To Heaven When You Die?

[Derf]

Yes, when we die physically we are present with the LORD:

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" (2 Cor.5:6,8).​

When a Christian dies physically then his body turns to dust and he goes to be in the presence of the LORD.

What kind of body does the Christian have on when he is in the presence of the LORD in heaven?

I feel like we're stuck on a circular track here.

I know you think the time between the beginning of the absence and the beginning of the presence is nil--and that may be--but I don't think it is a necessary condition from those particular verses.

What about the logic train?

 

[Derf]

You know how this body of flesh is called a tent? Perhaps the "many mansions" is referring to other types of bodies....even interim bodies. :idunno:

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

I'd be hesitant to think it refers to more than one spiritual body per person. But perhaps it is referring to our incorruptible bodies (one per person, else why incorruptible).

I rather think it's a metaphor saying there's plenty of room for everybody that will believe, both jewish and gentile (starting to get the apostles used to the idea, maybe), and that Christ is going to the cross and the grave to prepare the way for us to have that immortal body. So while the mansions don't necessarily refer to the immortal bodies, the "place" Jesus prepares for us might. Just my opinion, and I'm not sure I agree with myself sometimes.

 

[Derf]

[MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION]
[MENTION=13955]glorydaz[/MENTION] got me looking in John 14. What do you think of this one?

[Jhn 14:3 NKJV] "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, [there] you may be also.

Doesn't it sound like we won't be with Him until He comes for us again? And since that results in us being with Him forever, it can't be just His resurrection, but has to be His second coming?

And if we won't be with Him until His second coming, how are we with Him before His second coming?

 

[glorydaz]

I'd be hesitant to think it refers to more than one spiritual body per person. But perhaps it is referring to our incorruptible bodies (one per person, else why incorruptible).

I rather think it's a metaphor saying there's plenty of room for everybody that will believe, both jewish and gentile (starting to get the apostles used to the idea, maybe), and that Christ is going to the cross and the grave to prepare the way for us to have that immortal body. So while the mansions don't necessarily refer to the immortal bodies, the "place" Jesus prepares for us might. Just my opinion, and I'm not sure I agree with myself sometimes.

LOL I hear ya.

So, when Jesus rose from the dead and hung around for forty days, there were times when He wasn't even recognized by those who knew him. I think there may be more for us to learn from that time, and again how He appeared in Revelation to John.

Also, the mount of transfiguration has Moses and Elijah appearing, but Jesus had not yet risen, so those couldn't be their resurrected bodies...yet they were spiritual bodies.

 

[genuineoriginal]

It is ignorant to try to consult a Jewish person about God's Truth. Just because someone is Jewish does not mean they have a special revelation.

I agree.
However, you distort the meaning of the Bible if you do not use the historical-grammatical method.
The historical-grammatical method is a Christian hermeneutical method that strives to discover the Biblical authors' original intended meaning in the text.

I have given you many scriptures saying they do. Your denial is not a defense of the truth.

Your assertion that the verses you provided state something other than they actually state is no defense of a the lie you have been trained to believe.

We do not float around heaven as disembodied spirits between death and the resurrection.
We are dead after death and stay in the grave until the resurrection when we are raised from the dead.

John 5:28-30 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.​

 

[Lon]

I don't think the "witnesses" there are referring to their looking down, but of their being examples of faith....their testimonies, as it were. Like Abel...

Hebrews 11:4
By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.​

Both rather than either limitation, imho.

 

[glorydaz]

Both rather than either limitation, imho.

I don't know for sure, but I haven't found anything that says those in heaven are looking down on us.

In the same way, those in the place of the dead, before the cross, were spared the knowledge of the goings on in this world. There will be no more worry....how can that be if we see our loved ones suffering here on earth. So far, the two verses you and Dan have offered haven't convinced me.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Would you please give me your meaning of the words in "bold" in the following passage?"

"Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord...We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" (2 Cor.5:6,8).​

Thanks!

The Greek words translated as "absent" and "present" in that verse are only found in 2 Corinthians 5:6,8,9.
They do not mean the same thing as the words translated as "absent" and "present" in the following verses, so you need to find out why Paul used different words instead of pretending they mean the same thing.

1 Corinthians 5:3 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 2 Corinthians 10:1 1 Now I Paul myself beseech you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ, who in presence am base among you, but being absent am bold toward you: 2 Corinthians 10:11 11 Let such an one think this, that, such as we are in word by letters when we are absent, such will we be also in deed when we are present. 2 Corinthians 13:2 2 I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare: 2 Corinthians 13:10 10 Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the power which the Lord hath given me to edification, and not to destruction.​

 

[Derf]

LOL I hear ya.

So, when Jesus rose from the dead and hung around for forty days, there were times when He wasn't even recognized by those who knew him. I think there may be more for us to learn from that time, and again how He appeared in Revelation to John.

Also, the mount of transfiguration has Moses and Elijah appearing, but Jesus had not yet risen, so those couldn't be their resurrected bodies...yet they were spiritual bodies.

Yet Jesus pointed to His scars to prove that it was He. I wonder whether those scars will always remain with Him , or if they were already healing when He showed them to His disciples. The latter would explain why people didn't recognize Him as having just been crucified, with marks from the crown of thorns, much of His beard pulled out (along with the flesh that held it, no doubt), and swelling and bruising from being hit in the face. But the wounds, healing, might have given Him a temporarily hard-to-recognize appearance--neither what He used to look like before the cross, nor what He looked like at death.

Moses and Elijah are good questions, just as Samuel's buried and possibly resurrected body when Saul sought for him. Were those bodies temporary, maybe like the ones used by the angels in the Lord's visit to Abraham and the angels' subsequent visit to Lot?

 

[Derf]

I don't know for sure, but I haven't found anything that says those in heaven are looking down on us.

In the same way, those in the place of the dead, before the cross, were spared the knowledge of the goings on in this world. There will be no more worry....how can that be if we see our loved ones suffering here on earth. So far, the two verses you and Dan have offered haven't convinced me.

I would expect that the reason we have no more worry, even if we are looking down on suffering loved ones, is that we better understand the purposes of God and how He is able to fulfill them despite what appears to the eye (and possibly what evil ones are attempting to do). Plus, Jesus would be there to explain what He is going to do about it.

I've often wondered if the reason there's no death is not because we suddenly stop putting ourselves in dangerous situations, but because even if we do, God's angels are there to help us through it. That if we do get hurt, it can be healed with the leaves of the tree of life. That if we start to drown, we can make it to the top of the water and stand there. That we aren't sad because there's never anything to be sad about, but because every tear tear is wiped away. Not to say there isn't much danger (like sickness and poison snakebites) that is eradicated, but the cure for any problem is available through the power and love of our Lord, even if we venture too close to a 1000 ft cliff, for instance.

 

[glorydaz]

Yet Jesus pointed to His scars to prove that it was He. I wonder whether those scars will always remain with Him , or if they were already healing when He showed them to His disciples. The latter would explain why people didn't recognize Him as having just been crucified, with marks from the crown of thorns, much of His beard pulled out (along with the flesh that held it, no doubt), and swelling and bruising from being hit in the face. But the wounds, healing, might have given Him a temporarily hard-to-recognize appearance--neither what He used to look like before the cross, nor what He looked like at death.

I can't imagine his body would have begun to heal...dead bodies don't heal, and here we see Mary thought He was the gardener.

John 20:14-15 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.​

He had a very special body...He could appear in the room with them. (Of course, He could do that before He died). He had to show them His hands and side before they recognized Him. Surely if He looked like He did at death, they would have recognized Him immediately. Plus Thomas put his hand in His side. It could not have been healing.

John 20:19-20 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.​

Moses and Elijah are good questions, just as Samuel's buried and possibly resurrected body when Saul sought for him. Were those bodies temporary, maybe like the ones used by the angels in the Lord's visit to Abraham and the angels' subsequent visit to Lot?

I think they were temporary spiritual bodies. Could have been like with the visit to Lot.

They could not yet have a resurrected body because Jesus was the firstfruits.

 

[glorydaz]

I would expect that the reason we have no more worry, even if we are looking down on suffering loved ones, is that we better understand the purposes of God and how He is able to fulfill them despite what appears to the eye (and possibly what evil ones are attempting to do). Plus, Jesus would be there to explain what He is going to do about it.

I've often wondered if the reason there's no death is not because we suddenly stop putting ourselves in dangerous situations, but because even if we do, God's angels are there to help us through it. That if we do get hurt, it can be healed with the leaves of the tree of life. That if we start to drown, we can make it to the top of the water and stand there. That we aren't sad because there's never anything to be sad about, but because every tear tear is wiped away. Not to say there isn't much danger (like sickness and poison snakebites) that is eradicated, but the cure for any problem is available through the power and love of our Lord, even if we venture too close to a 1000 ft cliff, for instance.

True......There will truly be some unveiling going on.

Isaiah 64:4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.​

 

[way 2 go]

@Jerry Shugart
@glorydaz got me looking in John 14. What do you think of this one?

[Jhn 14:3 NKJV] "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, [there] you may be also.

Doesn't it sound like we won't be with Him until He comes for us again? And since that results in us being with Him forever, it can't be just His resurrection, but has to be His second coming?

And if we won't be with Him until His second coming, how are we with Him before His second coming?

but you have to account for this verse

Luk 23:43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

 

[way 2 go]

Some of the same stuff I'm going through with @Jerry Shugart. Good thoughts all around!

But I think Php 1:23 is less specific than 2 Cor 5, giving even less detail about what Paul means. It certainly seems to me that Paul might mean there is no awareness of anything between the two events--dying and then resurrecting in Jesus' presence.

Same thing about the thief on the cross. "Today" might make sense in terms of the thief's awareness.

I won't argue with you about the souls under the altar--just point out the odd circumstances these souls seem to be in.

what level of proof are you looking for ?

if someone is searching for truth we have verses that do not contradict one another

here are 2
Luk 23:43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Mat 22:32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.”


but for those that are not of faith
for example you do not have Jesus saying "I am God"
so you can't prove to someone with that criteria that Jesus is God

 

[oatmeal]

I brought up Lu 23:43 in a different post. I agree it makes more sense to suggest that the thief was with Jesus after death, and in a state of awareness. But as a single verse in favor of the awareness concept, it is not real strong, verses the other verses that talk about "sleep". And where was Jesus that day after He died--prior to His own resurrection? Some say this verse says He was preaching to the spirits in Abraham's bosom, also called Paradise. If so, it's a great argument for awareness after death. But it's a little light in terms of number of verses.

1 Thess 4 speaks of a gathering in the clouds where we will meet Jesus, after it says "God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus".

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. [1Th 4:14 NKJV]
Then we who are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. [1Th 4:17 NKJV]

Part of the issue might be trying to understand which direction we're going after we meet Him in the air. If we're going up to heaven, it makes more sense than if we are returning to earth. We start getting into other presuppositions here.

Regarding the souls under the altar, they are told to "rest a little longer", which is applied, according to the thread of logic, to the spirits, not the bodies. Thus, while the bodies are sleeping, as you say, the spirits are "resting". I'm not sure why we need to be distinguishing. I think the best way to look at that verse is to see it in prophetic terms. The vision John had showed those souls as a way to illustrate that there were earlier martyrs and later martyrs. It doesn't have to be a statement on awareness, and if it is, it's a better statement for no awareness than for awareness, at least most of the time.

Yes the dead in Christ must rise from the dead in order to be with the lord.

I Thessalonians 4:13-17

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It is only when the dead rise up, rise up from what? From being dead, from not being alive. The reason that a person must be raised from the dead to ever be with the lord is because God is the God of the living.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I feel like we're stuck on a circular track here.

I asked you to give me your interpretation of the meaning of 2 Corinthians 5:8.

Can you do that?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Greek words translated as "absent" and "present" in that verse are only found in 2 Corinthians 5:6,8,9.
They do not mean the same thing as the words translated as "absent" and "present" in the following verses, so you need to find out why Paul used different words instead of pretending they mean the same thing.

Let us look at the passage again:

"Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord...We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" (2 Cor.5:6,8).​

Both the Greek words translated "present" and "absent" are verbs, meaning "to stay at home" and "to depart" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

With that in view give me your interpretation of the meaning of verse 8.

 

[eleos]

So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.For we walk by faith, not by sight.We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. - 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Corinthians5:6-8&version=NKJV



Honestly, If you think about it, people in heaven are probably busier interacting with others, and probably aren't paying too much attention to the things that happen on earth.



Bad theology because of not knowing what the Bible says.

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep,

ie, dead

lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

those who died who had a personal relationship with God

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

talking about when bodies are raised at the rapture

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Again, at the rapture, bodies will be raised

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. - 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Thessalonians4:13-18&version=NKJV

Agree, because of what I said above.



Agreed.

All from the beginning are in the grave. Resting until Jesus comes back. The saved will be in the first resurrection ... the unsaved will be in the 2nd resurrection.
State of the Dead


Psalm 90:3-6

You turn man back into dust And say, "Return, O children of men." For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it passes by, Or as a watch in the night. You have swept them away like a flood, they fall asleep; In the morning they are like grass which sprouts anew.

Job 7:21

"Why then do You not pardon my transgression And take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."

Job 14:10-12

"But man dies and lies prostrate Man expires, and where is he? "As water evaporates from the sea, And a river becomes parched and dried up, So man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.

Psalm 13:3

Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death,

Daniel 12:2

"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 9:24

He said, "Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him.

Mark 5:39

And entering in, He said to them, "Why make a commotion and weep? The child has not died, but is asleep."

Luke 8:52-53

Now they were all weeping and lamenting for her; but He said, "Stop weeping, for she has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him, knowing that she had died.

1 Kings 2:10

Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David.

Deuteronomy 31:16

The LORD said to Moses, "Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers; and this people will arise and play the harlot with the strange gods of the land, into the midst of which they are going, and will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them.

2 Samuel 7:12

"When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom.

1 Kings 11:43

And Solomon slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of his father David, and his son Rehoboam reigned in his place.

1 Kings 14:20

The time that Jeroboam reigned was twenty-two years; and he slept with his fathers, and Nadab his son reigned in his place.

1 Kings 16:6

And Baasha slept with his fathers and was buried in Tirzah, and Elah his son became king in his place.

1 Kings 22:50

And Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers and was buried with his fathers in the city of his father David, and Jehoram his son became king in his place.

2 Kings 14:16

So Jehoash slept with his fathers and was buried in Samaria with the kings of Israel; and Jeroboam his son became king in his place.

2 Kings 15:7

And Azariah slept with his fathers, and they buried him with his fathers in the city of David, and Jotham his son became king in his place.

2 Kings 16:20

So Ahaz slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David; and his son Hezekiah reigned in his place.

2 Kings 20:21

So Hezekiah slept with his fathers, and Manasseh his son became king in his place.

2 Kings 21:18

And Manasseh slept with his fathers and was buried in the garden of his own house, in the garden of Uzza, and Amon his son became king in his place.

Revelation 14:13

And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."


John 11:11-14

This He said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep." The disciples then said to Him, "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover." Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.

Acts 7:60

Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.

1 Corinthians 15:6

After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;

John 5:28-29

"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Job 14:13-15

"Oh that You would hide me in Sheol, That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You, That You would set a limit for me and remember me! "If a man dies, will he live again? All the days of my struggle I will wait Until my change comes. "You will call, and I will answer You; You will long for the work of Your hands.

Psalm 17:15

As for me, I shall behold Your face in righteousness; I will be satisfied with Your likeness when I awake.

Isaiah 26:19

Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.


Luke 16:22-23

"Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

1 Corinthians 15:20

But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Jeremiah 51:57

"I will make her princes and her wise men drunk, Her governors, her prefects and her mighty men, That they may sleep a perpetual sleep and not wake up," Declares the King, whose name is the LORD of hosts.


Psalm 7:3-5

O LORD my God, if I have done this, If there is injustice in my hands, If I have rewarded evil to my friend, Or have plundered him who without cause was my adversary, Let the enemy pursue my soul and overtake it; And let him trample my life down to the ground And lay my glory in the dust. Selah.

Psalm 76:5

The stouthearted were plundered, They sank into sleep; And none of the warriors could use his hands.

Jeremiah 51:39

"When they become heated up, I will serve them their banquet And make them drunk, that they may become jubilant And may sleep a perpetual sleep And not wake up," declares the LORD.

 

[Derf]

but you have to account for this verse

Luk 23:43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Yes, indeed. But we also have to account for

For what [is] our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? [Are] not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? [1Th 2:19 KJV]

And
Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [1Th 4:17 KJV]

I'm not trying to dismiss your verse, but just to say that a single verse that appears to say one thing does not immediately counter one that says the opposite. Rather they all need to be counted as true.

 

[glorydaz]

Yes, indeed. But we also have to account for

For what [is] our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? [Are] not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? [1Th 2:19 KJV]

And
Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [1Th 4:17 KJV]

I'm not trying to dismiss your verse, but just to say that a single verse that appears to say one thing does not immediately counter one that says the opposite. Rather they all need to be counted as true.

I'm missing your point here, Derf. Those verses don't seem to contradict at all.