what's your agenda?
- Thread starter chrysostom
- Start date
I think it's hard to make either of them work in relation to the cross without a great deal of additional discussion. There's the truth and there's everything else. Anything that isn't the truth is dangerous. More or less wouldn't enter into it, pragmatically speaking.
Man chose
He chose death rather than life
sin rather than righteousness
bondage rather than freedom
Man's story has been told, how he came to be thrust out of God's garden of delight into a world of sorrow and woe.
That is what we see all around us, so not only does scripture say it but experience also.
Having chosen to rebel [you were in Adam...YOU were there] now no more choice.
Now there is only God's mercy.
He chose death rather than life
sin rather than righteousness
bondage rather than freedom
Man's story has been told, how he came to be thrust out of God's garden of delight into a world of sorrow and woe.
That is what we see all around us, so not only does scripture say it but experience also.
Having chosen to rebel [you were in Adam...YOU were there] now no more choice.
Now there is only God's mercy.
I've reached that same conclusion sometimes. What happens, I think, is peope do love and care and desire peace. Then the people "in charge" inevitably become more and more corrupt; power, greed, control and selfishness and everything that goes with that. I often wonder if there are more "good" people in the world or evil people.
Levolor
New member
I believe that the evil just gets more attention than the good. The good tend to be quiet and unobtrusive. So, I believe that there are more good in the world, and that has been my experience.
Hello Simon...
The truth is there are NO good people, not since the fall...we have to look at ourselves and be honest, we are not good.
Nice is not good...I can't help myself I LOVE people but I never fool myself to think that people are good. But God has worked, continues to work and will continue to work humility into people. He has many ways of doing it.
He does it in the very way He has made us...think of a father, he works at a construction site where he has to be tough, but see him at home with his small son. The fact that man is a society creature, we NEED other people.....God has other rougher ways of working humility into people.
This all tends to making us amenable to the gospel where we hear and hopefully receive the NEW BIRTH, our lives can be transformed by the forgiveness of sins.
THAT'S what we need a new life, the inner life of Christ in the soul.
OCTOBER23
New member
CHRYSTOMP said,
what's your agenda?
here is mine
----------------
to get saved - If you are Baptised and follow Christ till the end then you shall be saved.
Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ
we shall be saved, even as they.
Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood,
we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God
by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
-------------------------------------
-to defend the catholic church - WHY DEFEND AN INSTITUTION THAT BOWS TO IDOLS ?????
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-to present a reasonable interpretation of the apocalypse
The Book of Revelation is thoroughly explained on YOUTUBE by many Videos.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
to have a dialogue with my brothers - Talk to Cruciform cause he is your brother in your faith.
------------------------------------------
what do you think their (the Catholic Church's) agenda is......
-- The Catholic (Universal) Church is the same as Rome did which was, to Incorporate
all the Religions of the World under one Pagan Organisation by absorbing and modifying
their Pagan practices to conform with Catholic practices and thus CONTROL THE WORLD.
AND THEIR LEADERS WHO WOULD BE OBLIGED TO BOW DOWN TO AND OBEY THE POPE.
===========-----------------------------------------==============
what's your agenda?
here is mine
----------------
to get saved - If you are Baptised and follow Christ till the end then you shall be saved.
Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ
we shall be saved, even as they.
Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood,
we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God
by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
-------------------------------------
-to defend the catholic church - WHY DEFEND AN INSTITUTION THAT BOWS TO IDOLS ?????
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-to present a reasonable interpretation of the apocalypse
The Book of Revelation is thoroughly explained on YOUTUBE by many Videos.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
to have a dialogue with my brothers - Talk to Cruciform cause he is your brother in your faith.
------------------------------------------
what do you think their (the Catholic Church's) agenda is......
-- The Catholic (Universal) Church is the same as Rome did which was, to Incorporate
all the Religions of the World under one Pagan Organisation by absorbing and modifying
their Pagan practices to conform with Catholic practices and thus CONTROL THE WORLD.
AND THEIR LEADERS WHO WOULD BE OBLIGED TO BOW DOWN TO AND OBEY THE POPE.
===========-----------------------------------------==============
Jedidiah
New member
And my biggest concern with all this, all this topic that you've got here, Rainee, is that, when we all start worrying over who's in charge of what, precisely, and who's supposed to submit to whom, we tend to forget the whole "vnto the Lord" part, which defines the whole notion for Paul. Peter too weighs in on this topic when he writes, to the Christian wives of disobedient or unbelieving husbands, "Likewise, ye wiues, be in subiection to your owne husbands, that if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be wonne by the conuersation of the wiues...." As if to say, "Ladies, do you have a problem with your man ? If so, submit to him. That is all."
I take you for a Bible believer. That is, one who's authority is Our Lord Jesus Christ, and that the Scripture is the greatest authority on earth, so this isn't difficult for you to grasp. It's difficult perhaps to admit, but not to see. Paul and Peter want ladies to submit themselves to their men, whether those men are their pastors at their churches, or their husbands at their homes. It's probably offensive, but those passages are there. Mrs. Hughes and Mr. Carson are equals in Christ, but flesh and blood is not in Christ, and I reiterate, that Mr. Carson's "authority over her is part of the architecture of death that sin has constructed in this world and that will persist until Glory." It's just what this world is. It's passing away and it will be burned up, but it isn't burned up just yet, but it will be.
We're going to meet Him in the air when Our Lord returns, if we've fallen asleep, so that means perhaps that our new bodies are going to be able to fly. If so, then, does it make sense to obey traffic laws now, since we'll all be able to fly in the kingdom of God ?
The widow with two mites. She had a choice. Give nothing, or give it all. Giving 1 of her two mites, and keeping the other -- not an option. Both mites together were worth next to nothing anyway. It's senseless to keep only 1. Both mites are worth next to nothing; what's half of next to nothing ? She could have kept what she had, or she could have submitted it all.
Every day, I serve Our Lord. I don't answer to anybody for this service, only to Him, and I know that, this arrangement, it looks like what I know as "moral hazard," because there's no earthly authority who's following up on my service to Him. But that's again, the natural man, to whom this whole faith is just foolishness. He walks by sight, not faith. Meanwhile, to my own Master and to Him only, I "standeth or falleth." It's how Paul taught us, it's how Peter instructed us.
I take you for a Bible believer. That is, one who's authority is Our Lord Jesus Christ, and that the Scripture is the greatest authority on earth, so this isn't difficult for you to grasp. It's difficult perhaps to admit, but not to see. Paul and Peter want ladies to submit themselves to their men, whether those men are their pastors at their churches, or their husbands at their homes. It's probably offensive, but those passages are there. Mrs. Hughes and Mr. Carson are equals in Christ, but flesh and blood is not in Christ, and I reiterate, that Mr. Carson's "authority over her is part of the architecture of death that sin has constructed in this world and that will persist until Glory." It's just what this world is. It's passing away and it will be burned up, but it isn't burned up just yet, but it will be.
We're going to meet Him in the air when Our Lord returns, if we've fallen asleep, so that means perhaps that our new bodies are going to be able to fly. If so, then, does it make sense to obey traffic laws now, since we'll all be able to fly in the kingdom of God ?
The widow with two mites. She had a choice. Give nothing, or give it all. Giving 1 of her two mites, and keeping the other -- not an option. Both mites together were worth next to nothing anyway. It's senseless to keep only 1. Both mites are worth next to nothing; what's half of next to nothing ? She could have kept what she had, or she could have submitted it all.
Every day, I serve Our Lord. I don't answer to anybody for this service, only to Him, and I know that, this arrangement, it looks like what I know as "moral hazard," because there's no earthly authority who's following up on my service to Him. But that's again, the natural man, to whom this whole faith is just foolishness. He walks by sight, not faith. Meanwhile, to my own Master and to Him only, I "standeth or falleth." It's how Paul taught us, it's how Peter instructed us.
that is a lousy description of original sin
yes, we are all sinners
but
we still have our free will
we chose to do what is right
but
we often fail
we ask for help
and
we get it
we hope for forgiveness
and
we get it
that is the good news
don't you know that?
rainee
New member
Very good regards to you too Jedidiah,
I hope you don't think I was ignoring this post above, because I took my response so seriously that I went to another thread - that of Desert Reign which was on the topic of head covering for women.
I ask you to please find it and read what I wrote.
But before you do please allow me to give you the key to understanding some of my language:
if I speak outrageously or silly or in a way that is hard to tell if I am kidding or not --
it is most probably because I have been afraid my flesh was going to hurt me by posting something I shouldn't.
So what I do is try to think what my flesh wants in that spur of the moment - and i try to make a caricature out of it. IOW i try to make it funny because i do not regard my flesh as my friend. I have a higher self and a lower self, you see?
And when you start talking about certain things like male /female stuff I have a lower self that would just as soon launch you to the moon, so to speak.
See? Already you are doing it. Listen I am not ever worrying about who is in charge. YOU are apparently worrying about who is in charge, and I as your good sister am supposed to help you with that. My flesh however does not want to do that.
When The Lord started talking to women, and when Paul started talking to slaves, and then started talking to masters in front of slaves - the winds of change were starting to blow.
When Paul talked to husbands and wives together like individuals who both mattered and had to think on their own and act on their own - things were not going to be able to stay the same.
When the Holy Spirit was going to be with Gentiles as well as Jews, slaves as well as free, every believer as well Apostles, prophets and elders - the whole structure was going to be taking a wallop.
For me it's like you as a captain have to realize that as such - you are surrounded by co-captains. Want a stewardess? Fine, but she is also a co-captain.
Paul and Peter and James and everybody in the NT is trying to tame the co-captains - because they are speaking as The Apostles and prophets we should All be subject to -
and as such even YOU become a co-captain with them..
So I know they are talking to you the same way they are talking to me.
And what about your flesh?
Is it that much better than mine?
Ain't life grand?
Sir, I told you. What I want to do is fit you in a long tube and ...
Yes, but I do agree that he is the manager of the entire house and ruler of the downstairs.
Think about that. That is a heavy load.
I am trying to say he is glad to have her.
He can trust her to run without his worry what she is meant to handle.
She is more than capable and he is very glad for that.
When she does think she has to go to him she does.
And when he needs someone to talk to - he can go to her, can't he?
Doesn't she know who he is, and what he is not?
And shouldn't she love him and respect him?
And he also, knowing who she is and what she is not, shouldn't he love and respect her?
They are on the same side, right?
I have to think on this above, Jedidiah.
Owie. Now you are trying to turn the screws on me!
Hmm. On one hand I totally agree with you saying this -- but on another it does say we must submit one to another and it says it with no gender or status or relationship specified...Will have to think about this...
rainee
New member
Dear Jedidiah!
I apologize for sounding rude - I was trying to sound tough and funny but rereading it I see it was not either. I meant no disrespect and wish I could withdraw all parts that sound so but I hate to appear like I am hiding anything so there it is.. If there is something wrong in me that shows then it shows.
I have been somewhat wrestling with the concept you present below...
I never had it put to me like that before and so you have really put me in a
challenged position. Forgive me for saying but I like to be challenging not the other way around!
Sir, you put one line in quotes but I can't find where that quote came from.
So I have to ask you if you think what I do about it - namely that it is based on the idea that this we are talking about exists because it is still the effects of the curse on us?
As in we still die and get sick because and break and have things wrong or go wrong because death as the last enemy has not been totally defeated yet?
So if you look at it like that then does Paul say what he says because God said the husband will rule over the woman?
Now see, sir, I am very aware the Paul also said the husband's body belonged to the wife. This is NOT the old way, nor is it the way of the world.
Men have always ruled over women and taken people as slaves - no matter where you go in the world there is the evidence of these.
I currently believe that Paul says what he says to Timothy because he foresees difficult times. I think he needs men to be the best they can be and women to be where they can serve best.
An example of what I believe is Anita Bryant. She campaigned in public against certain activities that she believed were signs of immorality and decadence for her area. She seemed to win. She was spoken of highly by many Christian leaders. And then came the backlash. In the end she lost - not just her "cause" but her husband and in many ways her good way of life. She is not the only woman to be ground up under the teeth but she is the one I remember the best.
Men are what God made them to be. If they be quiet or if they speak, if they fight or lay low, they hopefully will bring us through.
Gotta go. Hope you are not too offended by me and can forgive my sounding rude earlier.
I apologize for sounding rude - I was trying to sound tough and funny but rereading it I see it was not either. I meant no disrespect and wish I could withdraw all parts that sound so but I hate to appear like I am hiding anything so there it is.. If there is something wrong in me that shows then it shows.
I have been somewhat wrestling with the concept you present below...
I never had it put to me like that before and so you have really put me in a
challenged position. Forgive me for saying but I like to be challenging not the other way around!
Sir, you put one line in quotes but I can't find where that quote came from.
So I have to ask you if you think what I do about it - namely that it is based on the idea that this we are talking about exists because it is still the effects of the curse on us?
As in we still die and get sick because and break and have things wrong or go wrong because death as the last enemy has not been totally defeated yet?
So if you look at it like that then does Paul say what he says because God said the husband will rule over the woman?
Now see, sir, I am very aware the Paul also said the husband's body belonged to the wife. This is NOT the old way, nor is it the way of the world.
Men have always ruled over women and taken people as slaves - no matter where you go in the world there is the evidence of these.
I currently believe that Paul says what he says to Timothy because he foresees difficult times. I think he needs men to be the best they can be and women to be where they can serve best.
An example of what I believe is Anita Bryant. She campaigned in public against certain activities that she believed were signs of immorality and decadence for her area. She seemed to win. She was spoken of highly by many Christian leaders. And then came the backlash. In the end she lost - not just her "cause" but her husband and in many ways her good way of life. She is not the only woman to be ground up under the teeth but she is the one I remember the best.
Men are what God made them to be. If they be quiet or if they speak, if they fight or lay low, they hopefully will bring us through.
Gotta go. Hope you are not too offended by me and can forgive my sounding rude earlier.
Jedidiah
New member
Rainee, you were not rude and I was not offended. Thanks for your patience.
And in short, to your question; is this "because death as the last enemy has not been totally defeated yet?" my answer is Yes. We have a soul that belongs in our glorified, spiritual (not natural), heavenly (not earthy), incorrupt (not corrupt), resurrected/changed body; and in the meantime, we still have this body, and this world, and this worldly order. And it's like I suggested, even if we can with our new bodies, procreate without marital relations, meaning we won't be married, which Our Lord revealed to us; it don't mean, let's all fornicate now, to help usher in the kingdom of God. We still should obey traffic laws now, even if we'll be supermanning around the kingdom when it comes.
And in short, to your question; is this "because death as the last enemy has not been totally defeated yet?" my answer is Yes. We have a soul that belongs in our glorified, spiritual (not natural), heavenly (not earthy), incorrupt (not corrupt), resurrected/changed body; and in the meantime, we still have this body, and this world, and this worldly order. And it's like I suggested, even if we can with our new bodies, procreate without marital relations, meaning we won't be married, which Our Lord revealed to us; it don't mean, let's all fornicate now, to help usher in the kingdom of God. We still should obey traffic laws now, even if we'll be supermanning around the kingdom when it comes.
I believe the "get saved" bumperstickers mislead some to save themselves
and your stuff is not misleading?
you give us no choice
so
what can we do to affect our destination?
No and nothing. The decree of election originates in the divine good pleasure the idea is also excluded that it is determined by anything in man, such as foreseen faith or good works, Rom. 9:11; II Tim. 1:9
that makes your belief the most dangerous one on tol
To set up fundamentalist evangelicals on blind dates with Jesus using facts and faith.
And to try to do it respectively.