ECT What is the true root objection to MAD?

musterion

Well-known member
First, my own understanding of Mid-Acts Dispensationalism is briefly this:

God chose a nation through whom He promised to someday bless the whole earth. That nation was Israel and that choosing involved various covenants. Christ Jesus came as Israel’s promised Redeemer, and through Israel – His nation of priests – He would redeem the whole world.

The problem is, Israel rejected Him. Not every individual Jew did so but Israel corporately, as a nation, despised Him and had Him crucified by Rome. But rising from the dead and ascending into Heaven, His apostles preached that if Israel repented and believed on Him as their Messiah, He would return to establish the long-awaited Kingdom, just as God had promised and as the Old Testament prophets had foretold.

But once again, Israel refused to bow to her Messiah. After the leaders stoned Stephen to death, God temporarily set Israel aside and temporarily suspended all fulfillment of prophecy.

At that point, God began to usher in the previously unmentioned dispensation of grace, which is now in effect and will remain so until He decides to bring it to an end.

During this age of grace, salvation is no longer to the Jew first. Previously unknown blessings and riches are promised equally to Jew and Gentile alike on the simple basis of faith alone in Christ’s death, burial and resurrection for the individual’s sin, without works of any kind either to be saved, stay saved or prove that one is saved, for God knows those who are His.


That is my understanding of MAD stated as briefly as I can state it.

Now the question is, Why do people who reject MAD seem to find it more intolerable than other doctrinal systems with which they also do not agree? I have found two basic reasons.

1. They don’t really understand MAD because what they have heard is not accurate. They believe a straw man version of MAD. In response, MADs try to clarify our position but usually with limited success.

2. They do understand MAD, or enough of it to hate what it implies for their own doctrinal position. I’ve found this to be the most common of the two, at least on TOL.

When you dig deep enough, informed objections to MAD (#2 above) tend to stem from one of two related roots. The opponent to MAD believes either (a) that the Christian Church has in some sense inherited the promised blessings, signs and covenants that God made solely with, or intended only for, national Israel, or (b) that the Christian Church has replaced national Israel outright. There is usually overlap between these two positions as they do stem from the same root, but objections boil down to one or the other.

Objection (a) can be seen in the opposition to MAD by Pentecostals, charismatics, various cultists and works-oriented members of Christendom who have been deceived into adopting Israel’s deactivated covenant works or sign gifts as necessary to salvation today, or necessary to their sanctification – some version of water baptism being the #1 expression of this error. Thus very, very few within Christendom today truly believe as Paul taught, that salvation is received by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone without works. THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS but almost all opponents of MAD, if they’re honest, will admit that they believe some degree of human religious effort [works] is involved in either getting themselves saved or keeping themselves saved. According to Paul, all such are believing a false gospel (Gal 1:8-9).

Objection (b) is straightforward enough among those denominations and cults that have adopted some variation on Replacement theology, wherein it is believed God will never again deal with Israel as His nation and all of His promises (and even warnings) have already been fulfilled in the past and/or fulfilled in the Christian church; hence the foolish "Zionist" label that is sometimes thrown against MADs as well as other dispensationalists.

In my opinion, even though they claim to uphold the entirety of God's Word (which they invariably and falsely accuse MADs of not doing), those holding to either of these dual errors deny the reliability of God and His Word because He has promised to someday once again deal with the world via Christ's redeemed nation Israel. However, He will do this ONLY after He has ended this dispensation of grace wherein there is “no distinction” between Jew and Gentile. In the meantime, He is not sovereignty judging anyone for error; He is not opening the ground beneath the feet of lying teachers and false prophets. He has given His Word and His Gospel of grace. For now He has nothing more to say. Such is grace!

So while some, by God's grace, do come to see the revelation of the mystery (Eph 3:8-9), the leaven of the errors described above - taking what God intended only for Israel while rejecting all He's given to the Body of Christ, and you can't have both - can only compound, spread and grow worse as this age of grace draws to its inevitable close.
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Why do people who reject MAD seem to find it more intolerable than other doctrinal systems with which they also do not agree?

calvinist doctrine on free will is more intolerable than mad
and
even more confusing

the biggest problem I have with the mad is what they say
namely:
they are saved
they don't sin

both statements are dangerous to
those who are not sure they are saved
those who still think they are sinning
 

Desert Reign

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
It's simple. MAD is an unnecessarily complicated interpretation of scripture. There are simpler and more cogent interpretations of the history.

Language is fluid. People mean different things at different times even though using the same words. The Bible is written in human language and is subject to the same principles. This is a practical and natural way of looking at Bible interpretation. The MAD method needs to create many complications due to their belief that words mean the same thing whenever they are used.

I don't hate MAD or MADdists. I feel sort of sorry for them in a way. This is common to dispensationalists generally. They treat words woodenly and then when it seems that the Bible is contradicting itself, they need to invent an explanation and that explanation is more complicated because it has to make God out to act differently at different times or with different peoples. They transfer their own confusion onto God himself in order to make themselves good and clean about interpreting the Bible in a contradictory manner and then they can no longer see that it is contradictory because they believe it is only reflecting God's true intentions. In the end, they get so far away from the original meaning of scripture that they can't get back to the obvious and simple. They end up just being lost in a dark wood full of pre and post this and that, full of false predictions and complicated schemes.

Like Chrys, I hate Calvinism. But MADdists seem to be good at keeping their heads down and I am generally OK with them.
 
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oatmeal

Well-known member
If people had believed Moses, they would have believed Jesus Christ.

John 5:45-46

Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

Christ rejection was the norm for Israel for most of its history, for most of its history involved Israel not making an effort towards the keeping the commandments

Stephen's execution was not that turning point, the crucifixion of Christ was that turning point. See the parable about

Matthew 21:

33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:

34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.

35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.

36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.

37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

The offer of salvation is to all.

The beginning of the age of grace started when the day of Pentecost was fully come. Acts 2:1-4
 

musterion

Well-known member
I used "hate" thinking only of a specific group, not all who oppose MAD, and I should probably modify that.
 

musterion

Well-known member
MAD is an unnecessarily complicated interpretation of scripture.
I fail to see how a primarily literal interpretation is needlessly complicated. To me, it's based in a belief that God is capable of saying what He means and meaning what He says.

Allegorization is where things get stupid, imo.
 

musterion

Well-known member
the biggest problem I have with the mad is what they say
namely:
they are saved
they don't sin
You are Catholic so it will do me no good to explain it. All I can say is, you have misunderstood what we've said on that point (a doctrinal point which, by the way, is not exclusive to MADs).
 

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
LIFETIME MEMBER
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I fail to see how a primarily literal interpretation is needlessly complicated. To me, it's based in a belief that God is capable of saying what He means and meaning what He says.

Allegorization is where things get stupid, imo.
Allegorical interpretation can lead to all sorts of highly ambiguous conclusions.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
I think the main reason is that if you "see" MAD, you cannot in good conscience continue to practice your denominational religion. Some will fight tooth and nail to preserve the religion they love.
 

musterion

Well-known member
I think the main reason is that if you "see" MAD, you cannot in good conscience continue to practice your denominational religion. Some will fight tooth and nail to preserve the religion they love.

Yep. More than any other doctrinal system, MAD denies something very important to almost everyone within Christendom, even as it offers Christ and Him crucified...which evidently isn't enough.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
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Now the question is, Why do people who reject MAD seem to find it more intolerable than other doctrinal systems with which they also do not agree? I have found two basic reasons.

What they really reject is Paul's message, which is really the message from the risen Lord Jesus Christ.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
I think the main reason is that if you "see" MAD, you cannot in good conscience continue to practice your denominational religion. Some will fight tooth and nail to preserve the religion they love.

Yep. Cross Reference, 'rulz, Andyc, all want to be seen full of wine in front of men. They want people to judge their flesh. They want no part of having their flesh cut off.
 

musterion

Well-known member
What they really reject is Paul's message, which is really the message from the risen Lord Jesus Christ.
That is true, and said so in an earlier draft. But since they'd just deny it, instead decided to focus on their practical, doctrinal reasons.

But yes, it all comes back to that.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
If water baptism, communion, tongues, fake healings, ordinances, elaborate church "services", robed pastors, or reformation commentaries are your thing, you will probably fight against MAD.
 

Doom

New member
do you sin?
Let's let the apostle Paul answer your question, as it should be answered...


"For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." Rom 7:15-17


If you do not like Paul's response, then no one can help you.
 

musterion

Well-known member
Let's let the apostle Paul answer your question, as it should be answered...


"For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." Rom 7:15-17


If you do not like Paul's response, then no one can help you.

I didn't post that to him because I'm really not in the mood to hear someone say a plainly stated fact of Scripture really doesn't say what it says, or that I'm reading it wrong, or to watch them dredge up something from the O.T. to pretend neutralize it. Sorry, not today. But I will observe with interest as he does it to you. ;)
 
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