ECT What is Predestination?

Puppet

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You evidently do not know a thing about the "foreknowledge" of God.

According to that foreknowledge he will not predestinate anyone to salvation until he looks into the future and sees a person believing. And then he predestinates him.

Therefore, being called and believing the gospel precedes predestination.

But since you have no understanding of the meaning of the "foreknowledge" of the Father you believe the most ridiculous thing--that the Father predestines to salvation those who have not yet believed.

But this verse makes it plain that it is those who believe who are predestined to salvation:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you for salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

Just because your belief is valid or genuine (according to your own understanding) doesn't mean that you were actually saved by grace (effectually called), God is the sole arbiter of who will accept his son and go to heaven, and those who he effectually calls He preserves until the end (perseverance/preservation of the saints).
 
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Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Just because your belief is valid or genuine (according to your own understanding) doesn't mean that you were actually saved by grace (effectually called), God is the sole arbiter of who will accept his son and go to heaven, and those who he effectually calls He preserves until the end (perseverance/preservation of the saints).

All people have the ability to believe the gospel and be saved. Not just some as the Calvinists assert! The words of Paul here demonstrates that even those who are perishing have the ability to believe:

"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor.4:3-4).​

The gospel is hidden to those who are perishing and the god of this age, Satan, is responsible for the gospel being hidden from them. Satan blinded their minds to the gospel for one purpose, "so that they cannot see the light of the gospel."

The fact that the minds of those who are perishing can be "blinded" to the gospel proves that they have the ability to see it if their minds were not blinded to it. After all, one must be able to see before being blinded can happen.

This demonstrates that even those who are perishing have the ability to believe the gospel and as a result receive salvation. Therefore, it cannot be denied that the Lord's death and the blessings which flow from that death have the potential to be applied to even those who are perishing.
 

Puppet

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All people have the ability to believe the gospel and be saved. Not just some as the Calvinists assert! The words of Paul here demonstrates that even those who are perishing have the ability to believe:

"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor.4:3-4).​

The gospel is hidden to those who are perishing and the god of this age, Satan, is responsible for the gospel being hidden from them. Satan blinded their minds to the gospel for one purpose, "so that they cannot see the light of the gospel."

The fact that the minds of those who are perishing can be "blinded" to the gospel proves that they have the ability to see it if their minds were not blinded to it. After all, one must be able to see before being blinded can happen.

This demonstrates that even those who are perishing have the ability to believe the gospel and as a result receive salvation. Therefore, it cannot be denied that the Lord's death and the blessings which flow from that death have the potential to be applied to even those who are perishing.


Yeah right, look up in the sky and say oh look theres God, I believe. Look see the blue spot just right over there.

Sure we cough cough believe you.

No, God finds you, you don't find Him.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Yeah right, look up in the sky and say oh look theres God, I believe. Look see the blue spot just right over there.

Sure we cough cough believe you.

No, God finds you, you don't find Him.

Of course the Lord finds us and that happens in the following way:

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" (Ro.10:13-15).​
 

Puppet

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Of course the Lord finds us and that happens in the following way:

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" (Ro.10:13-15).​

Whosoever
 
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Pierac

New member
Eph 1:11 In Christ we too have been claimed as God's own possession,29 since we were predestined according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will

29 tn Grk "we were appointed by lot." The notion of the verb κληρόω (klēroō) in the OT was to "appoint a portion by lot" (the more frequent cognate verb κληρονομέω [klēronomeō] meant "obtain a portion by lot"). In the passive, as here, the idea is that "we were appointed [as a portion] by lot" (BDAG 548 s.v. κληρόω

Just like John the Baptist's Father...


Luk 1:9 according to the custom of the priestly office, he (Zacharias) was chosen by lot to enter the temple of the Lord and burn incense.

Act 1:25 to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place." 26 And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles.


So... your saying by not responding you agree... human choice comes before being chosen by lot or not!!! ???

So are we chosen by lot... or do we get the choose? :think:


You fail again to see the truth... as we all know... what you want to be the truth... :)



Paul
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
29 tn Grk "we were appointed by lot." The notion of the verb κληρόω (klēroō) in the OT was to "appoint a portion by lot" (the more frequent cognate verb κληρονομέω [klēronomeō] meant "obtain a portion by lot"). In the passive, as here, the idea is that "we were appointed [as a portion] by lot" (BDAG 548 s.v. κληρόω

Here is the meaning at Ephesians 1:11:

"Once in NT: to make a lot, i.e. a heritage, private possession" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).​
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Of course the Lord finds us and that happens in the following way:

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" (Ro.10:13-15).​

One must be saved in order to Call upon the name of the Lord! A lost person can't believe the Gospel because to them it is hid 2Cor4:3-4!
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
One must be saved in order to Call upon the name of the Lord! A lost person can't believe the Gospel because to them it is hid 2Cor4:3-4!

The gospel comes in the power of the Holy Spirit and only those who resist the holy Spirit do not believe.

You think that the Holy Spirit is impotent!
 

Danoh

New member
One must be saved in order to Call upon the name of the Lord! A lost person can't believe the Gospel because to them it is hid 2Cor4:3-4!

You are off-base as to that.

Romans 1:

21. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Acts 26:

15. And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
16. But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17. Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18. To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

2 Thessalonians 2:

9. Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Acts 17:

30. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31. Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath
raised him from the dead.
32. And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
33. So Paul departed from among them.

2 Cor. 4:

3. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4. In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Rejecting light due to their ignorance, they remained lost. Opening themselves up to the power of darkness.

2 Corinthians 3:

15. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

Romans 10:

16. But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The opportunity to hear so that one might then exercise faith in what was heard, is given by the Word of God concerning the Lord ...being preached. But it was not obeyed.

As in Israel's case, when their Prophesied Lord not only showed up within their midst, but also, as Prophesied, began to call out a believing remnant - a nation from within their own nation - willing to bring forth that righteousness this Lord: the Christ, was calling on them to bring forth the fruits thereof.

And not only so, but Israel had had the witness of all creation before that!

Romans 10:

18. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

That's the problem. That's why the gospel remains hid to the lost. They reject it, and by that, give themselves over to a reprobate mind; a mind eventually incapable of seeing correction; a mind that asserts it alone is right.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
You are off-base as to that.

Romans 1:

21. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Acts 26:

15. And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
16. But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17. Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18. To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

2 Thessalonians 2:

9. Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Acts 17:

30. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31. Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath
raised him from the dead.
32. And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
33. So Paul departed from among them.

2 Cor. 4:

3. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4. In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Rejecting light due to their ignorance, they remained lost. Opening themselves up to the power of darkness.

2 Corinthians 3:

15. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

Romans 10:

16. But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The opportunity to hear so that one might then exercise faith in what was heard, is given by the Word of God concerning the Lord ...being preached. But it was not obeyed.

As in Israel's case, when their Prophesied Lord not only showed up within their midst, but also, as Prophesied, began to call out a believing remnant - a nation from within their own nation - willing to bring forth that righteousness this Lord: the Christ, was calling on them to bring forth the fruits thereof.

And not only so, but Israel had had the witness of all creation before that!

Romans 10:

18. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

That's the problem. That's why the gospel remains hid to the lost. They reject it, and by that, give themselves over to a reprobate mind; a mind eventually incapable of seeing correction; a mind that asserts it alone is right.

The Gospel is hid to them that are lost 2 Cor 4:3-4!
 

Dialogos

Well-known member
You evidently do not know a thing about the "foreknowledge" of God.

According to that foreknowledge he will not predestinate anyone to salvation until he looks into the future and sees a person believing. And then he predestinates him.
Shifty....

:Shimei:

Up until now you have argued that God predestines people after they believe...

Jerry said:
So this means that it is not until a person believes and is saved that he is chosen for salvation.

And..

Jerry said:
One is not predestined unto salvation until he is called by the gospel and believes it.

That can only mean that the calling happens before the one who believes is predestined.

And...

Jerry said:
No one is predestined to salvation until they are chosen.

And no one is chosen to salvation until they believe the truth.

Anyone with an open mind can see that. Can you agree with that?

But now your argument has shifted to claiming that God predestines people before they believe but based on His foreknowledge of their future decision to believe.

So which is it Jerry?

Is a person predestined before or after they believe?

When you reply could you please let me know if that is your final answer because I am tired of trying to have a discussion with someone whose theology constantly shifts.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
But now your argument has shifted to claiming that God predestines people before they believe but based on His foreknowledge of their future decision to believe.
Are you so uninformed that you think that a person is chosen "in Him" even though they are not saved? You prove that you will believe anything, no matter how ridiculous:

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).​

In eternity the Lord chose us to salvation because of our faith:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

While in the eternal state and chose those who believed and salvation was given to us in the eternal state:

"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began" (2 Tim.1:9).​

So in the eternal state this salvation was given to us and from the beginning He chose us to salvation because we believed.

It is ridiculous to argue, like you do, that people were chosen for salvation before they believed because no one is saved until they believe the gospel (Ro.1:16).

So we can see that the calling by the gospel precedes believing, and believing precedes being predestined to salvation. And that proves that the things listed here are not in chronological order:

"Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified" (Ro.8:30).​

When you reply could you please let me know if that is your final answer because I am tired of trying to have a discussion with someone whose theology constantly shifts.

Please quote me where I ever said that anyone is predestined before they believe.
 
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Dialogos

Well-known member
Are you so uninformed that you think that a person is chosen "in Him" even though they are not saved? You prove that you will believe anything, no matter how ridiculous:
I simply believe what the text teaches.

(Ephesians 1:4 ESV) even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

His choosing of us was "before the foundation of the world." Nobody was saved then.

Case closed.

Jerry said:
In eternity the Lord chose us to salvation because of our faith:
:nono:

(2 Thessalonians 2:13 ESV) But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

What does this verse teach us that God did?

God chose us (you in 2 Thess 2:13) to be saved...

What about this is confusing?

Now, this verse also teaches us how God chose us to be saved, namely, through sanctification and belief.

This verse does not teach that God chose us because we believed. It says that God chose us to be saved and the way God saves us is through sanctification and belief.

If I told you that United Airlines chose you to receive a free round trip ticket to anywhere in the world through the mail, would you argue that the basis for their choosing was the the U.S. mail?

:duh:

Of course not!

They mailed the tickets because they chose you not the other way around.

But that's what you are doing this verse, you are taking the way God saves (through sanctification and belief) and erroneously making that the basis for God's choice.



While in the eternal state and chose those who believed and salvation was given to us in the eternal state:

Jerry said:
It is ridiculous to argue, like you do, that people were chosen for salvation before they believed because no one is saved until they believe the gospel (Ro.1:16).
Jerry, when were you chosen according to Ephesians 1:4.

:readthis:
(Ephesians 1:4 ESV) even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
(Ephesians 1:4 ESV) even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

You think that a person can be "in Him" and yet not be saved?

His choosing of us was "before the foundation of the world." Nobody was saved then.

But then you turn around and say:

While in the eternal state and chose those who believed and salvation was given to us in the eternal state.

Case closed.

The only thing you have proved is the fact that your own ideas contradict each other.

How can it be closed since you have not provided any verse which teaches that any unsaved person has been predestined to salvation?

Your ideas are built upon nothing but thin air!
 

Pierac

New member
Eph 1:11 In Christ we too have been claimed as God's own possession,29 since we were predestined according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will

29 tn Grk "we were appointed by lot." The notion of the verb κληρόω (klēroō) in the OT was to "appoint a portion by lot" (the more frequent cognate verb κληρονομέω [klēronomeō] meant "obtain a portion by lot"). In the passive, as here, the idea is that "we were appointed [as a portion] by lot" (BDAG 548 s.v. κληρόω

Just like John the Baptist's Father...

Here is the meaning at Ephesians 1:11:

"Once in NT: to make a lot, i.e. a heritage, private possession" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).​

Thanks for supporting my view… many fail to see this fact of scripture…! We are chosen by lot ... like John's Father to enter the Temple! :readthis:

Jesus teaches this... Joh 13:18 "I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen... :think:

Context is King... Jerry Shugart... try to apply this concept in the future...


:poly::sherlock:
Paul
 
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