What is forgiveness?

[Spockrates]

What is forgiveness?

Uh...why would you need to forgive God?



Forgiveness is setting my own wants/needs/perceptions/perceived wrongs/hurts/vengeances/ad infinitum aside and loving my neighbor as myself.



All that I believe to be to me as "wronged" needs to be put behind as I forsake all to follow Jesus Christ.



My favorite quote, "Forgiveness is the poison I swallow hoping someone else will die."

My apologies for being clear as mud! What I meant is this: Since I love God but never have a need to forgive him, love is not always forgiveness. So what kind of love is forgiveness?

Also, there are people I know who have never said or done anything to offend me, yet I still should love them. So how is loving them as myself forgiveness?

I think we are getting near a definition of forgiveness, but not there, yet. Perhaps you can be more precise. Do you mean forgiveness is loving the person who has hurt you as much as you love yourself?

 

[theophilus]

So what kind of love is forgiveness?

The death of self-love.

Also, there are people I know who have never said or done anything to offend me, yet I still should love them. So how is loving them as myself forgiveness?

I think we are getting near a definition of forgiveness, but not there, yet. Perhaps you can be more precise. Do you mean forgiveness is loving the person who has hurt you as much as you love yourself?

You're going to lose me here because I loathe myself. However, God feeds me, clothes me and provides a home and a job for me anyway.

Because He loves me.

 

[PureX]

Excellent! Yes that is the answer I seek. But let me be sure I understand you.

I tend to make a distinction between thoughts and actions. For example, I might feel compassion when I see someone suffering. But if I don't say or do something to relieve the suffering, I'd conclude that I have not acted on my feelings.

So forgive me for asking more questions. But are you saying there are two different kinds of forgiveness--one that is an emotion and one that is an action?

The hurt that we forgive is the result of an offensive act, not just the act itself. It is internal: spiritual mental and and emotional.

If someone lies to me, so as to steal money from me, that act hurts my bank account, but does not necessarily hurt me. What hurts me is the insult to my being that preceded and enabled the offensive act. It's the disregard of my well-being. The humiliation of having been 'duped': made a fool, or a patsy of. This hurts my sense of self. It makes me feel foolish and valueless, and wrong to have trusted in the benevolence of people, of life, of God, and of myself. And that is the real poison that infects us when we are abused in some way, by others. The act of the abuse may hurt our bodies and our livelihoods, but the real harm is in what it does to our minds and hearts. And this is why I believe that forgiveness is so important.

I also believe that the offenders know that they have done this damage to others, in their own hearts. And each time they do it, it also poisons their own sense of self. They try to lie to themselves about this, and deny the true damage they've done to others, but unless they are sociopaths, I believe they know, deep inside, what they've done, and that they've become a lesser person because of it.

And that's why they need forgiveness, too. Even though they may not be able or willing to accept it for the spiritual, mental and emotional healing that it offers them.

 

[Spockrates]

What is forgiveness?

The death of self-love.







You're going to lose me here because I loathe myself. However, God feeds me, clothes me and provides a home and a job for me anyway.



Because He loves me.

Is suicide forgiveness? I mean, isn't suicide the death of self love, since killing oneself is an act of self hatred?

 

[Spockrates]

The hurt that we forgive is the result of an offensive act, not just the act itself. It is internal: spiritual mental and and emotional.



If someone lies to me, so as to steal money from me, that act hurts my bank account, but does not necessarily hurt me. What hurts me is the insult to my being that preceded and enabled the offensive act. It's the disregard of my well-being. The humiliation of having been 'duped': made a fool, or a patsy of. This hurts my sense of self. It makes me feel foolish and valueless, and wrong to have trusted in the benevolence of people, of life, of God, and of myself. And that is the real poison that infects us when we are abused in some way, by others. The act of the abuse may hurt our bodies and our livelihoods, but the real harm is in what it does to our minds and hearts. And this is why I believe that forgiveness is so important.



I also believe that the offenders know that they have done this damage to others, in their own hearts. And each time they do it, it also poisons their own sense of self. They try to lie to themselves about this, and deny the true damage they've done to others, but unless they are sociopaths, I believe they know, deep inside, what they've done, and that they've become a lesser person because of it.



And that's why they need forgiveness, too. Even though they may not be able or willing to accept it for the spiritual, mental and emotional healing that it offers them.

Thanks for that insight, but have you answered my question? Please forgive my persistence, but l'd like to know: Is forgiveness an emotion, an action, or both?

 

[PureX]

Uh...why would you need to forgive God?

I have known a great many people, including myself, who have come to feel that God has let them down, or caused them to suffer. Whether this is true or not doesn't really matter, because it poisons us with anger and resentment, regardless. And so we do need to 'forgive God'. Quite often, I think.

Forgiveness is setting my own wants/needs/perceptions/perceived wrongs/hurts/vengeances/ad infinitum aside and loving my neighbor as myself.

I disagree with this. If we set aside our own "wants/needs/perceptions" we are not loving ourselves. We are dismissing/rejecting ourselves. And this is not love. And if we do not love ourselves, how can we love others as ourselves?

All that I believe to be to me as "wronged" needs to be put behind as I forsake all to follow Jesus Christ.

I don't believe this is exactly what Jesus meant when He admonished us to follow Him.

My favorite quote, "Forgiveness is the poison I swallow hoping someone else will die."

That is certainly NOT forgiveness.

 

[Spockrates]

So there is a method to my madness of many questions. The method is Socratic. The purpose is to carefully consider the truth of the answers. The reason is that I honestly don't know what forgiveness truly is, but I have no doubt I must forgive, or risk not being forgiven by God. All of the assistance each of you provide is therefore greatly appreciated. May God bless the discussion!

 

[PureX]

Thanks for that insight, but have you answered my question? Please forgive my persistence, but l'd like to know: Is forgiveness an emotion, an action, or both?

It's an intellectual, emotional, and spiritual choice. It often involves a whole series of actions on the part of the forgiver, to fully accomplish. As most of us are not able to fully forgive immediately upon our choosing to do so. We very often have to practice at forgiving; and keep choosing to forgive an offender over and over, until it becomes a bit more automatic, and final. But even then, it'll likely be a life-long practice, as we will undoubtably encounter more offenses and resentments along the way.

 

[theophilus]

Is suicide forgiveness? I mean, isn't suicide the death of self love, since killing oneself is an act of self hatred?

Suicide is not forgiveness.

The death of self-love is giving yourself to others in Christ's name; pouring one's self out in service to others for Him.

Killing one's self is not always an act of self-hatred. Sometimes it is the death of hope in a soul.

 

[Spockrates]

What is forgiveness?

Suicide is not forgiveness.



The death of self-love is giving yourself to others in Christ's name; pouring one's self out in service to others for Him.



Killing one's self is not always an act of self-hatred. Sometimes it is the death of hope in a soul.

Acknowledged. It is not forgiveness.

So I have a neighbor who has always been kind to me and never did me any wrong. She said her computer stopped working and asked for my help. She might say that by fixing her computer, I gave myself to her in Christ's name, pouring myself out in service to her for him.

Was my act of fixing her computer an example of forgiveness?

 

[theophilus]

That is certainly NOT forgiveness.

My mis-quote: UNforgiveness is the poison I swallow hoping someone else will die.

http://www.acts17-11.com/death.html

We die to our old man when we are buried with Him in baptism. We are raised a new man.

The old self has died.

 

[theophilus]

Acknowledged. It is not forgiveness.

So I have a neighbor who has always been kind to me and never did me any wrong. She said her computer stopped working and asked for my help. She might say that by fixing her computer, I gave myself to her in Christ's name, pouring myself out in service to her for him.

If you did it in the name of Christ.

Was my act of fixing her computer an example of forgiveness?

No it was an act of kindness (unless you had ulterior motives).

 

[Spockrates]

What is forgiveness?

Forgiveness is 'letting go'. It's letting go of the hurt, anger, and resentment that we become infected with when people or circumstances abuse our trust in God, life, existence, and ourselves. I focussed on the results because forgiveness is an action, taken presumably, for the result.

Thank you. [emoji846]

So let's take this statement, above...

It's an intellectual, emotional, and spiritual choice. It often involves a whole series of actions on the part of the forgiver, to fully accomplish. As most of us are not able to fully forgive immediately upon our choosing to do so. We very often have to practice at forgiving; and keep choosing to forgive an offender over and over, until it becomes a bit more automatic, and final. But even then, it'll likely be a life-long practice, as we will undoubtably encounter more offenses and resentments along the way.

...and use this clarification to come up with a more precise definition:

Forgiveness is an intellectual, emotional and spiritual choice to stop feeling hurt, anger and resentment for those who have wronged us. This choice is often a continual process, rather than a one-time decision.

Is this pretty close?

 

[theophilus]

:

Forgiveness is an intellectual, emotional and spiritual choice to stop feeling hurt, anger and resentment for those who have wronged us. This choice is often a continual process, rather than a one-time decision.

Is this pretty close?

Please add "Powered by the Holy Spirit."

 

[Spockrates]

Please add "Powered by the Holy Spirit."

Indeed!

 

[Spockrates]

What is forgiveness?

If you did it in the name of Christ.







No it was an act of kindness (unless you had ulterior motives).

Then the definition you gave me will not do! For you defined kindness, rather than forgiveness. Now it might be that forgiveness is a kind of kindness, so that all forgiving is kind, but not all that is kind is necessarily forgiving. In such case, it seems we will need to narrow your definition. What kind of kindness is forgiveness?

 

[theophilus]

So...please narrow my definition.

 

[Spockrates]

What is forgiveness?

So...please narrow my definition.

You mean, tell you what I think forgiveness might be? I'll take a stab at it, if you want. Do you?

 

[PureX]

So there is a method to my madness of many questions. The method is Socratic. The purpose is to carefully consider the truth of the answers. The reason is that I honestly don't know what forgiveness truly is, but I have no doubt I must forgive, or risk not being forgiven by God. All of the assistance each of you provide is therefore greatly appreciated. May God bless the discussion!

I think what you're seeking is the 'reality of an ideal'. And ideals like forgiveness are of their own reality. We know them by embodying them. And that may not always be 'logical', or otherwise provable.

Sort of like "God". It's a reality that we choose to adopt, or not to. Yet either way, the consequences begin to define us, rather than us defining them.

 

[Spockrates]

What is forgiveness?

I think what you're seeking is the 'reality of an ideal'. And ideals like forgiveness are of their own reality. We know them by embodying them. And that may not always be 'logical', or otherwise provable.



Sort of like "God". It's a reality that we choose to adopt, or not to.

Are you of the opinion that no spiritual truth is logical, or that only some spiritual truth is illogical?