What does it mean to be under the Law, Biblically?

[Ktoyou]

The only way to establish the Law is by living according to the Law. Faith itself without the Law is akin to a body without the breath of life which means that such a faith is dead. Read James 2:26)

The Church is raptured before the tribulation
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." (1 Thess. 4:16-18).

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality" (1 Cor. 15:51-53).

 

[Jacob]

Acts 2:33 does not answer the question. Paul said, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” (Galatians 3:8 NKJV)

Blessed how?

..that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Galatians 3:14 NKJV)​

Not all Hebrews (including Jews) have received the promise of the Spirit through faith in Jesus Christ.

Acts 10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

Romans 11:24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

Phillipians 3:5 circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;

You were speaking of all Hebrews. Not all have been saved, but you are speaking of a different new covenant meaning some people believe the fulfillment of the verse you quoted has not yet occured, while I showed it has. Some believe the new covenant has not yet come, but it did 2000 years ago. If you believe the new covenant has not come yet, you have a different new covenant than what the Bible speaks about.

You may be thinking of the following, which is not speaking of a different new covenant from what Jesus brought. I am not an authority on how this is fulfilled, but I know it is true.

Romans 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.”
27 “THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.”

 

[patrick jane]

The existence of God is theoretical (not proven). So, then, is the existence of "God's laws". I doubt your obsession with these will allow you to admit to this, however.

Well you believe the theory of God, your profile says Christian

 

[Jacob]

Yes, it is fine with me, when you admit it.

I have no problem with Judaism or being a Jew if I can know that I am one now if I am, but I was not born a Jew. I believe in the Jewish Messiah and observe some of God's commands found in the Law, even already being a Christian.

 

[Jacob]

Creation testifies to a great mystery; one that we may never unravel.

Creation implies a Creator, God. I hope you can agree.

 

[PureX]

Well you believe the theory of God, your profile says Christian

Sure, but I understand that it's just my theory. I don't have to pretend to know that my theory of God is God. I just have to trust that it is even though I don't know it. I think that's what faith is: trusting in what we hope to be so, even though we don't know it to be so.

I don't understand why so many Christians think they have to boast about divine knowledge that they can't really possess. It seems dishonest, to me.

 

[PureX]

Creation implies a Creator, God. I hope you can agree.

"Creation" is a biased term for existence, though, isn't it?

We don't actually know if there is an origin of existence or not. It may be perpetual. That's why I say that existence (what you call "creation") testifies to a mystery that we may never unravel. Not so long as we are a part of it, anyway. I personally choose to conceive of that mystery source, sustenance and reason for all that exits as a "God" that manifests in my experience of existing as love: forgiveness, kindness, generosity, peace, etc.,. But of course I can't prove any of this. It's just my "theory of God: of the Great Mystery".

 

[Jacob]

"Creation" is a biased term for existence, though, isn't it?

We don't actually know if there is an origin of existence or not. It may be perpetual. That's why I say that existence (what you call "creation") testifies to a mystery that we may never unravel. Not so long as we are a part of it, anyway. I personally choose to conceive of that mystery source, sustenance and reason for all that exits as a "God" that manifests in my experience of existing as love: forgiveness, kindness, generosity, peace, etc.,. But of course I can't prove any of this. It's just my "theory of God: of the Great Mystery".

The good, developed, or well sought after qualities a person has can hardly be called God.

Each of us exist. Creation exists. Some say nature exists. Nature is God's creation. God's creation exists. But first God exists. What I was saying was that recognizing that creation exists, or is, is recognizing a Creator. To have creation you have to have a Creator. And that Creator is God. No one but God could have created what is His creation, creation, or what we observe of His creation. In any case, creation, or nature, exists, and testifies to a Creator, God.

The laws of nature exist as we know them. Science is about discovery and exploration of God's creation. The word science means knowledge, and applies to more than that which pertains to the scientific disciplines. Science is based on knowledge of God and observation of His creation. That there is a design to anything shows there was a designer, just as with a building there must have been a builder. You can't prove God exists with the scientific method, per say, but we already have that God exists as the reason we can know anything and the way we even were able to come up with the scientific method. That is, I believe the scientific method presupposes God. And rightly so. Kind of difficult to believe anyone would want to say God does not exist.

Maybe people do to try to get away from moral responsibility and culpability. But God does exists, He cares about us and the way we live, so He gave us laws and rules to live by or abide by. God's word, including His commands, are found in the Bible.

 

[PureX]

The good, developed, or well sought after qualities a person has can hardly be called God.

I was not calling it God. God is the Great Mystery source, sustenance and purpose of all that exists. I was calling love the expression of God in my experience of being.

Each of us exist. Creation exists. Some say nature exists.

Right: existence exists.

Nature (existence) is God's creation.

We don't actually know this. Perhaps existence is "God expressed". They could have come into being, together, or they could both be eternal. I don't like to just make stuff up and pose it as a fact. It's dishonest. If we don't know, we should admit that we don't know.

God's creation exists. But first God exists.

We don't know that.

What I was saying was that recognizing that creation exists, or is, is recognizing a Creator.

Only if you assume one came before the other, and then caused the other to exist. But we don't know this to be the case.

To have creation you have to have a Creator. And that Creator is God. No one but God could have created what is His creation, creation, or what we observe of His creation. In any case, creation, or nature, exists, and testifies to a Creator, God.

… All based on a presumption of knowledge that we don't actually possess.

That there is a design to anything shows there was a designer, just as with a building there must have been a builder. You can't prove God exists with the scientific method, per say, but we already have that God exists as the reason we can know anything and the way we even were able to come up with the scientific method. That is, I believe the scientific method presupposes God. And rightly so. Kind of difficult to believe anyone would want to say God does not exist.

I agree that existence expresses "design". And I agree that the source of this design is what we call "God". But unfortunately, that does not unravel the mystery. It only gives it a label.

Maybe people do to try to get away from moral responsibility and culpability. But God does exists, He cares about us and the way we live, so He gave us laws and rules to live by or abide by. God's word, including His commands, are found in the Bible.

That's a theory. One of many. It's not one I ascribe to. The only "God-given" laws I recognize are those that govern the way existence exists. What we might call the, "laws of nature".

 

[Jacob]

I was not calling it God. God is the Great Mystery source, sustenance and purpose of all that exists. I was calling love the expression of God in my experience of being.
Right: existence exists.
We don't actually know this. Perhaps existence is "God expressed". They could have come into being, together, or they could both be eternal. I don't like to just make stuff up and pose it as a fact. It's dishonest. If we don't know, we should admit that we don't know.
We don't know that.
Only if you assume one came before the other, and then caused the other to exist. But we don't know this to be the case.
… All based on a presumption of knowledge that we don't actually possess.
I agree that existence expresses "design". And I agree that the source of this design is what we call "God". But unfortunately, that does not unravel the mystery. It only gives it a label.
That's a theory. One of many. It's not one I ascribe to. The only "God-given" laws I recognize are those that govern the way existence exists. What we might call the, "laws of nature".

It's only natural. It's human nature. The laws of nature. Nature itself. Natural law. Natural Theology. The natural man. All different.

You said existence exists. You also believe God is a label but that God as Designer makes sense.

All that was created exists. But the Creator exists too. It doesn't make sense to say that the Creator came after the creation.

 

[way 2 go]

No one is above the law. Some people think they are above the law because they know that they are not under it.

dead to the law
diplomatic immunity

Rom 7:3 Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.
Rom 7:4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ,

Hopefully they are not escaping (that is, attempting to escape or avoid) God's commands and righteous decrees. If a person obeys God's Law, are they under it?

yes , if a person obeys God's law they are under it.

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified.
Gal 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

walk by the Spirit

Gal_5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

 

[Jacob]

dead to the law
diplomatic immunity

Rom 7:3 Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.
Rom 7:4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ,

yes , if a person obeys God's law they are under it.

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified.
Gal 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

walk by the Spirit

Gal_5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

Can I meet you where you are at by asking if you obey God's commands found in the New Testament writings would that be obeying God's law?

On the one hand, though there are more commands found in the New Testament writings than in the Torah, this would be leaving some commands out if one were to say they are not explicitly mentioned in the New Testament writings. On the other hand, the New Testament does not necessarily disagree with Old Testament or old covenant law.

These are all my opinions, but I recognize many obey Jesus Christ without feeling they are obeying any law at all, of any sort.

When I say Law of God I mean the Law of Moses. When I say law of God I mean either the law of Christ, new covenant law (if it exists, there was a change of law with a change of priesthood), or all of God's instruction or law from the Law of Moses to include the law of Christ, His teaching and that of the apostles to begin with.

 

[PureX]

It's only natural. It's human nature. The laws of nature. Nature itself. Natural law. Natural Theology. The natural man. All different.

You said existence exists. You also believe God is a label but that God as Designer makes sense.

All that was created exists. But the Creator exists too. It doesn't make sense to say that the Creator came after the creation.

Existence clearly exhibits the phenomenological idea of design. The origin of that design, however, remains a mystery to us. I've stated my position. I won't make claims about God that I can't substantiate. And I don't need to. I'm OK letting God be God, and be a mystery to me. I'm OK living by faith, and hope, and avoiding all the religious pretense and self-delusion.

 

[RBBI]

Existence clearly exhibits the phenomenological idea of design. The origin of that design, however, remains a mystery to us. I've stated my position. I won't make claims about God that I can't substantiate. And I don't need to. I'm OK letting God be God, and be a mystery to me. I'm OK living by faith, and hope, and avoiding all the religious pretense and self-delusion.

You are avoiding some religious pretense, but you are definitely not avoiding self-delusion by virtue of the fact you're trusting in your carnal mind, which He says is enmity or an enemy of His. It is the "horn" or power of the flesh, but His horn is His Spirit, which WILL, if depended upon lead you into all Truth. Which horn would you rather have? Peace

 

[Jacob]

Existence clearly exhibits the phenomenological idea of design. The origin of that design, however, remains a mystery to us. I've stated my position. I won't make claims about God that I can't substantiate. And I don't need to. I'm OK letting God be God, and be a mystery to me. I'm OK living by faith, and hope, and avoiding all the religious pretense and self-delusion.

I don't know what you mean by existence, but maybe you mean all that is. Certainly all that exists includes God Himself, the author of existence.

 

[PureX]

I don't know what you mean by existence, but maybe you mean all that is. Certainly all that exists includes God Himself, the author of existence.

In which case God and existence (which you call "Creation") would have had to come into being, together, or they would have to be eternal, and have always existed, together. Otherwise, we have to separate "Creation" from existence, and that wouldn't be logical, nor would it resolve the great mystery. It would only obscure it with secondary questions of origination, and confusing forms or levels of "existence".

 

[Jacob]

In which case God and existence (which you call "Creation") would have had to come into being, together, or they would have to be eternal, and have always existed, together. Otherwise, we have to separate "Creation" from existence, and that wouldn't be logical, nor would it resolve the great mystery. It would only obscure it with secondary questions of origination, and confusing forms of "existence".

Existence as we know it was created by God. Your existence and my existence are a separate subject.

Individual humans exist. Other things exist as well. But all the things that exist, that are a part of existence, were created by God who exists.

 

[PureX]

Existence as we know it was created by God. Your existence and my existence are a separate subject.

There is no such thing as a "separate existence". Every 'thing' that exists, is a part of the whole phenomenon of being. The delineations we perceive, therein, exist only in our minds; as a result of the way the human mind cognates the information it takes in.

Individual humans exist. Other things exist as well. But all the things that exist, that are a part of existence, were created by God who exists.

That's not logical. If God created existence, then God does not exist. If God exists, then God could not have created existence without having created himself. But he wouldn't have existed to do to create himself or to create existence. See what I mean?

I find it more logical to conceive of God and existence both as being eternal, and that all the manifestations of existence that we experience (physically, intellectually and spiritually) are manifestation of "God" through existence. God didn't 'make existence happen' so much as God 'is existence happening'.

 

[Jacob]

There is no such thing as a "separate existence". Every 'thing' that exists, is a part of the whole phenomena of being. The delineations we perceive, therein, exist only in our minds; as a result of the way the human mind cognates information.
That's not logical. If God created existence, then God does not exist. If God exists, then God could not have created existence without having creating himself. But he wouldn't have existed to do the creating. See what I mean?

I find it more logical to conceive of God and existence as being eternal, and that all the manifestations of existence that we experience (physically, intellectually and spiritually) are manifestation of "God". God didn't 'make them happen' so much as God 'is them happening'.

God would have no need to create Himself, having already existed. You can't have someone (God) create something without having already existed. Since God does exist, it makes sense that the world we experience was created by Him.

We are not speaking of manifestations of God, as if God were a part of His own creation.

I don't know what you mean by separate existence, but since you are saying you do not approve of it maybe we don't need to discuss it.

 

[way 2 go]

if you obey God's commands found in the New Testament writings would that be obeying God's law?

yes

On the one hand, though there are more commands found in the New Testament writings than in the Torah, this would be leaving some commands out if one were to say they are not explicitly mentioned in the New Testament writings. On the other hand, the New Testament does not necessarily disagree with Old Testament or old covenant law.

Luke 12:33 disagrees with the OT

These are all my opinions, but I recognize many obey Jesus Christ without feeling they are obeying any law at all, of any sort.

When I say Law of God I mean the Law of Moses. When I say law of God I mean either the law of Christ, new covenant law (if it exists, there was a change of law with a change of priesthood), or all of God's instruction or law from the Law of Moses to include the law of Christ, His teaching and that of the apostles to begin with.

Mat_5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

the change happend with the casting away of Israel
and the turning to the gentiles

Rom_3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.