ECT Water Baptism Not For Today

dodge

New member
Jerry Shugart;4997146]The apostles were sent out to all the world to preach and to baptize with water (Mk.16:15-17). However, there is a good reason why they didn't go to the nations and why Peter had to have a special revelation from the LORD before he would go to a Gentile. In fact, when the disciples were scattered after Stephen was killed the disciples went everywhere preaching the gospel to none but the Jews only (Acts 11:19). Do you know why they did that and why Peter, James and John agreed to confine their ministry to the Jews (Gal.2:9)?

Jerry, your argument that Paul was the first to reveal the "mystery" is contrary to what the Apostle Luke recorded and what Jesus revealed to the Apostles.

Luke 24:45-48King James Version (KJV)

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
Were they disobeying the Lord Jesus since He told them to go into the whole world and preach and baptize all who believed?


They had lived their whole life as Jews and I am sure that had plenty to do with NOT going to the heathens !


Since they were first given the commission to preach to the Gentiles then why was Paul later made the Apostle of the Gentiles?

After the D.B.R and ascension they all preached exactly what Jesus taught them and opened their understanding to from scripture just as the Apostle Luke recorded.

Jesus taught the "7" I AM'S and never referred to Paul even once ! Jerry, Jesus is the Lord of Lord and King of Kings not Paul.
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
The apostles were sent out to all the world to preach and to baptize with water (Mk.16:15-17). However, there is a good reason why they didn't go to the nations and why Peter had to have a special revelation from the LORD before he would go to a Gentile.

I wonder if there were Jews in parts of their world other than Judea?
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Jerry, your argument that Paul was the first to reveal the "mystery" is contrary to what the Apostle Luke recorded and what Jesus revealed to the Apostles.

Why did you even quote what I said here and then just completely ignore it?:

The apostles were sent out to all the world to preach and to baptize with water (Mk.16:15-17). However, there is a good reason why they didn't go to the nations and why Peter had to have a special revelation from the LORD before he would go to a Gentile. In fact, when the disciples were scattered after Stephen was killed the disciples went everywhere preaching the gospel to none but the Jews only (Acts 11:19). Do you know why they did that and why Peter, James and John agreed to confine their ministry to the Jews (Gal.2:9)?

Obviously you have no understanding of why those things happened and worse than that you don't care.
 

dodge

New member
Why did you even quote what I said here and then just completely ignore it?:

The apostles were sent out to all the world to preach and to baptize with water (Mk.16:15-17). However, there is a good reason why they didn't go to the nations and why Peter had to have a special revelation from the LORD before he would go to a Gentile. In fact, when the disciples were scattered after Stephen was killed the disciples went everywhere preaching the gospel to none but the Jews only (Acts 11:19). Do you know why they did that and why Peter, James and John agreed to confine their ministry to the Jews (Gal.2:9)?

When Luke quoted Jesus Luke said you are wrong. YOU are ignoring the scripture I quoted because it proves you are wrong.

Obviously you have no understanding of why those things happened and worse than that you don't care.

I understand that Luke said Jesus opened their understanding to the scriptures concerning himself about His D.B.R., and WHAT & WHO pays for sin , and you say that never happened until Paul. No thank you I will stay with scripture.

Jerry, you have turned the scripture into such a "mystery" you cannot see the obvious, truly sad.

Luke 24:45-48King James Version (KJV)

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
I wonder if there were Jews in parts of their world other than Judea?

Do you wonder why Peter, James and John agreed to confine their ministry to the Jews since the Lord Jesus had previously given them the following commission to preach the gospel to "every creature"?:

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature"
(Mk.16:15).​
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Jerry, you have turned the scripture into such a "mystery" you cannot see the obvious, truly sad.

You keep changing the subject. I will ask you the same question that I asked jamie:

Do you wonder why Peter, James and John agreed to confine their ministry to the Jews since the Lord Jesus had previously given them the following commission to preach the gospel to "every creature"?:

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature"
(Mk.16:15).​
 

dodge

New member
Do you wonder why Peter, James and John agreed to confine their ministry to the Jews since the Lord Jesus had previously given them the following commission to preach the gospel to "every creature"?:

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature"
(Mk.16:15).​

Nothing to wonder about:

Jhn 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


Luke 24:45-48King James Version (KJV)

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
 

DAN P

Well-known member
Nothing to wonder about:

Jhn 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


Luke 24:45-48King James Version (KJV)

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.


Hi and still do not see the CONTEXT of your REPLY !!

dan p
 

Danoh

New member
Nehemiah 8:7 Also Jeshua, and Bani, and Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodijah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, and the Levites, caused the people to understand the law: and the people stood in their place.

Caused the people to understand the Law?

How? By what means?

8:8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

Result?

8:12 And all the people went their way to eat, and to drink, and to send portions, and to make great mirth, because they had understood the words that were declared unto them.

The Problem in Luke 24?

Spoiler

Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

In other words, were not these things concerning Me PROPHESIED IN The SCRIPTURE?

In other words Ye have failed to believe that which was PROPHESIED concerning Me.

Solution:

What did we just now read in Nehemiah, is the process by which others are caused to "see" a thing, or, to "understand" a thing?

8:8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

They read the passages to them;

Emphasizing key words distinctly;

And by that, gave the sense of the passages;

And by that, caused them to understand the meaning.

In other words, they EXPOUNDED The Passages unto them, and by THAT, opened the eyes of their understanding; cause them to experience within themselves the personal experience of we "SEE what those passages MEAN..."

EXACTLY what the Lord did, in...

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

He did WHAT?

Beginning at Moses and from there to all the Prophets, He EXPOUNDED, or laid out before them ALL that is IN Their Writings concerning Him.

Result:

24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

WHILE He did what?

WHILE He EXPOUNDED or laid out ALL The Scriptures concerning Him...unto them.

Note another example...

Acts 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

He did what?

He opened and alleged, or EXPOUNDED or LAID OUT those Passages in Scripture that had PROPHESIED that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that THIS Jesus, whom I preach unto you, (whom I allege) IS Christ.

Later, in the same chapter, we read of how that what that was all about was basically a Bible Study: a search through The Scriptures as to those Passages pertinent to what (earlier Jesus, and here, Paul) were alleging.

For which gets in trouble; moves on down the road a bit; and does the same thing...

17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

And Paul was doing that with lost people there...

Acts 17:4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few. 17:5 But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.

17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

Back in Luke 24, we "see" the same thing again...The Scripture "opens" "alleges" or "expounds" the same thing again.

Which thing it "opens" "alleges" or "expounds" through The Scripture.

In other words, there was NO Mystery being revealed here.

NONE of that had been "kept secret since before the world began" Rom. 16:25.

Rather ALL THAT concerning The Lord AT THAT POINT had been nothing more than...

Acts 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Note there, by the way, that said blotting out of sins is at some future point.

Because it is ISRAEL'S PROPHESIED, YET FUTURE blotting out of THEIR sins AS A NATION, that is STILL in view BY THE SPIRIT speaking THROUGH Peter.

3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

But back to....

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

We have already "alleged" or "opened" through The Scripture "expounded" that the meaning of "opened" is with reference to opening, alleging, or expounding The Scripture.

24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

He opened, alleged, or expounded, unto them that "Thus it IS WRITTEN..."

24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

But as we just now "saw" in Acts 3; the meaning of THAT is impacted by The Spirit's Word's speaking THROUGH Peter.

Even Luke 24: 47's "beginning at Jerusalem" had been PROPHESIED...

Isaiah 2:1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. 2:5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

Thus, the sense of...

John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. 1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

The Son of God?

The King of...ISRAEL?

Luke 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

Of the house of who?

Of David.

1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 1:29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

He shall reign over whom?

Over the house of Jacob.

How long?

For ever.

Isaiah 2:1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. 2:5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

Add 2 Thessalonians 2 to Paul's words in Acts 17, in light of Romans 9 through 11, and 2 Peter 3, and what you find is that the above was not only NOT The Mystery that Paul had preached; but that the above was...temporarily...interrupted.

 
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glorydaz

Well-known member
I wonder if there were Jews in parts of their world other than Judea?

At Pentecost, we see Jews coming from all over the known world.

Acts 2
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,

10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.​
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Do you wonder why Peter, James and John agreed to confine their ministry to the Jews since the Lord Jesus had previously given them the following commission to preach the gospel to "every creature"?:

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature"
(Mk.16:15).​

Was it because Paul was preach the Gospel of Salvation to the Gentiles?
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
In post 60 Jerry asked, "Were they disobeying the Lord Jesus since He told them to go into the whole world and preach and baptize all who believed?"

Ah, he's good isn't he? How did you answer him?

I would say they didn't disobey the Lord, wouldn't you?

I'm thinking they must have been given undated orders when the Lord raised up the Apostle Paul.


But, I'm hoping Jerry doesn't keep us waiting too long to hear what he means.
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
I would say they didn't disobey the Lord, wouldn't you?

I would say they went where Christ led them just like Paul went where Christ led him.

But salvation had to go to the Jews first and then to the other people the Father would call.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
But, I'm hoping Jerry doesn't keep us waiting too long to hear what he means.

Here is what I said earlier:

The apostles were sent out to all the world to preach and to baptize with water (Mk.16:15-17). However, there is a good reason why they didn't go to the nations and why Peter had to have a special revelation from the LORD before he would go to a Gentile. In fact, when the disciples were scattered after Stephen was killed the disciples went everywhere preaching the gospel to none but the Jews only (Acts 11:19). Do you know why they did that and why Peter, James and John agreed to confine their ministry to the Jews (Gal.2:9)?

The reason why the Jewish believers did not go to the whole world and preach the gospel of the kingdom to every creature was because they knew that when the Gentiles would be saved according to prophecy it would happen through the agency of the nation of Israel:

"Give ear and come to me; hear me, that your soul may live. I will make an everlasting covenant with you...Surely you will summon nations you know not, and nations that do not know you will hasten to you, because of the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor"
(Isa.55:3,5).​

That was not happening so when the disciples were scattered upon the persecution of Stephen they went into the world preaching that gospel to only the Jews. Before they would go into the whole world and preach to the Gentiles they were waiting for this to happen;

"And I will bring them (Israel), and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness...And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing...In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you"
(Zech.8:8,13,23).​

Even though the salvation of the Gentiles was not happening according to the prophetic program due to the unbelief of the nation of Israel the LORD would nonetheless arrange for the Gentiles to be saved beginning with Paul when he was made the Apostle of the Gentiles. He said that it is through Israel's fall that salvation has come to the Gentiles:

"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?"
(Ro.11:11-12).​

Thereafter, recognizing that a huge change had come into being with Paul being made the Apostle of the Gentiles the other Apostles agreed to confine their ministry to the Jews.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Here is what I said earlier:

The apostles were sent out to all the world to preach and to baptize with water (Mk.16:15-17). However, there is a good reason why they didn't go to the nations and why Peter had to have a special revelation from the LORD before he would go to a Gentile. In fact, when the disciples were scattered after Stephen was killed the disciples went everywhere preaching the gospel to none but the Jews only (Acts 11:19). Do you know why they did that and why Peter, James and John agreed to confine their ministry to the Jews (Gal.2:9)?

The reason why the Jewish believers did not go to the whole world and preach the gospel of the kingdom to every creature was because they knew that when the Gentiles would be saved according to prophecy it would happen through the agency of the nation of Israel:

"Give ear and come to me; hear me, that your soul may live. I will make an everlasting covenant with you...Surely you will summon nations you know not, and nations that do not know you will hasten to you, because of the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor"
(Isa.55:3,5).​

That was not happening so when the disciples were scattered upon the persecution of Stephen they went into the world preaching that gospel to only the Jews. Before they would go into the whole world and preach to the Gentiles they were waiting for this to happen;

"And I will bring them (Israel), and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness...And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing...In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you"
(Zech.8:8,13,23).​

Even though the salvation of the Gentiles was not happening according to the prophetic program due to the unbelief of the nation of Israel the LORD would nonetheless arrange for the Gentiles to be saved beginning with Paul when he was made the Apostle of the Gentiles. He said that it is through Israel's fall that salvation has come to the Gentiles:

"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?"
(Ro.11:11-12).​

Thereafter, recognizing that a huge change had come into being with Paul being made the Apostle of the Gentiles the other Apostles agreed to confine their ministry to the Jews.

Thanks, Jerry. I had missed that about Stephen. :thumb:
 

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Steko, isn't that the same as saying Jesus and what He taught is irrelevant ?

No.

Some things Jesus taught was for Israel and much was universal.

It was all for Israel, though what is contained in Mt-Jn as GOD's principles can be of benefit to anyone.

If baptism was done away with why then did Jesus and Paul himself get baptized ?

Are you then saying that some of us are claiming baptism was done away before the baptism of the Lord Jesus and Paul's baptism? I don't know anyone who claims that.


Baptism has nothing to do with circumcision !

They were both required of Israel, so they are related.


EXACTLY as Jesus taught when He said ."come unto me you that are heavy laden and I will give you rest" etc
.

He certainly gave me rest.


It started way back in Genesis 3 and was fulfilled with Jesus' ascension how then can everything Jesus taught be placed under what Paul taught when Paul Himself taught to follow Jesus ?

Paul/the Scriptures draw a distinction between this:

Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:


and this:

Rom 15:15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
Rom 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
 
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