virgin birth

Elia

Well-known member
One physical descendant, named Solomon, fulfilled the prophecy of "your seed after you, who will come from your body".
Jesus is of the "house" of David and it the true king of the "kingdom" of David.

Bs"d

Only a physical descendant of David is from the "house of David".

Does God often raise up a descendant who is not physically related?
No, I don't know of a single case.

He did it with Samuel who took over from Eli

Where is that written?

and He did it with Jesus who inherited the throne and kingdom of David.

Of course He did not.

I am sure there are other examples that can be found.

I'm very interested in those. Please post them here.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".

Micah 4:5
 

Elia

Well-known member
-
According to Jesus' genealogy in Luke's gospel, he was one of David's
biological descendants; which is good.


Bs"d

If you just bother to read that genealogy you'll see that it gives the genealogy of Joseph, who is not his real father.

So that does NOT prove that he is a biological descendant of David.

However, the line of Davidic royalty
passes down through David's son Solomon. That's not so good.

Not so good? You think God made a mistake??

The problem is, Jesus was not one of Solomon's biological descendants.

Out he goes. He cannot be the messiah, because he must be in male line a descendant of King David.

Well; we have Jacob to thank for resolving this dilemma centuries before
Jesus was born; actually, quite a while before David was even born.

At Gen 48:5-7, Jacob adopted his own two grandsons Manasseh and
Ephraim; thus installing them in positions equal in rank, honor, and power to
his twelve original sons, which had the effect of adding additional children to
Rachel's brood just as effectively as the children born of her maid Bilhah--
Dan, and Naphtali.


Jacob's motive for adopting Joseph's two sons was in sympathy for his
deceased wife being cut off during her child-bearing years, which
subsequently prevented her from having any more children of her own.
Ephraim and Manasseh bring Rachel's total up to six: two of her own, two by
her maid Bilhah, and two by Joseph's wife Asenath.

Ephraim and Menashe were in male line biological descendants of Jacob, which is in no way the case with your messiah and king David.

So the cases are totally not comparable.


Bottom line: Heirs to David's throne have to be his biological progeny-- that
much is irrevocable. However, they don't have to be Solomon's biological
progeny. All that matters is that they be in his line lawfully.

No, spiritual heritage, like being a priest, of being in the line of kings, can only be transferred through the biological male line.

And of course, the line of Joseph was not lawfully, on the contrary:


Some people call the genealogy in Matthew the 'legal line', but I am afraid that the words 'illegal line' would be more appropriate here. As most people propably don't know, a Jewish mariage is made up of two stages; kiddushin and nissu'in. With kiddushin the woman is legaly married to the man, and only the death of one of the partners can end the relation, or the man has to give the wife a bill of divorce. However, the marriage has not yet been consumed with intimite relations. This is the first stage. But already in this first stage, the woman belongs exclusively to her husband. If she would have sexual relations with another man, then that would be punished with death, see Deuteronomy 22:23-24; "If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed (the King James here calls the first stage of marriage 'betrothed') unto an husband, and a man find her in the city and lay with her, then you shall bring them both out
unto the gate of that city and ye shall stone them with stones that they die."

The second stage of marriage, nissu'in, is the consuming of the marriage through sexual relations. These days kiddushin and nissu'in are done on the same day, but in earlier days there was one year between kiddushin and nissu'in.
Josef and Mary did kiddushin, but not yet nissu'in. Read Matthew 1:18; "When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost." Mary was married to Joseph, (kiddushin, here called 'espoused') but the marriage was not yet consumed
("before they came together"). If in this stage the woman becomes pregnant from somebody else than the husband, than she has to be stoned to death, and when a child is born from that relation then it is an illegitimate child, and it is NOT the legal child of the one 'espoused' to the woman.

So the words 'legal line' are grotesque wrong here.


"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".

Micah 4:5
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Out he goes. He cannot be the messiah, because he must be in male line a descendant of King David.

Hang on to that thought and you can take it up with Jesus in the resurrection of unbelievers.
 

Elia

Well-known member
Hang on to that thought and you can take it up with Jesus in the resurrection of unbelievers.

Bs"d

He was not the first, nor the last to claim that he was the messiah and/or God.

Why do you only believe in him, and not in all the others?

Why don't you have faith in all the others?

Why are you an unbeliever when it comes to Mohammed?



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".

Micah 4:5
 

WeberHome

New member
-
Readers of English translations of the New Testament are often unaware that
manuscripts written in the ancient language of koiné Greek, from which we
get our English translations, contain no punctuation. So that the placement
of punctuation throughout English translations is, at times, more or less
subjective and arbitrary and/or an educated guess.

To complicate matters only more; sometimes translators are confronted with
more than one possibility of dividing the words in a sentence or paragraph.


The traditional way of inserting punctuation in Luke 3:23, and dividing its
words, is to make it appear that the genealogy in Luke is Joseph's. However,
it can also be divided and punctuated to make it appear that the genealogy
jumps over Joseph and begins with Heli. In other words: it can be made to
say that Heli is Mary's dad instead of Joseph's.


This is not a wild idea because unless Luke's genealogy is punctuated and
divided to show that Heli is Mary's dad, then Joseph will end up with two
dads-- Heli in Luke and Jacob in Matthew. Sometimes you've just got to use
a little God-given common sense when reading the Bible.

So then, if Luke's genealogy was in fact meant to show that Heli is Mary's
dad instead of Joseph's; then we have a biological link for Jesus to David. In
point of fact, Luke 2:1-5 verifies that not only Joseph, but also Mary was
related to David.

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Elia

Well-known member
In other words: it can be made to[/FONT][/SIZE]
say that Heli is Mary's dad instead of Joseph's.[/FONT]

Bs"d

How is that possible when Mary is NOWHERE to be found in that whole chapter? :confused: :confused:

Just show me one English translation which says in Luke 3 that Heli is Mary's dad.

Doesn't exist.

No such thing.

Utter desperation.


"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!
.

Joshua 24:14-15
 

Caino

BANNED
Banned
If Jesus was born of a virgin, why do the gospels trace his lineage through Joseph

Two reasons, one, most of Jesus' early followers were Jews. They sought to show him to be the Jewish Messiah (the Jews entertained wrong ideas about a Messiah). So they tried to show Jesus was from the corrupt house of David.

Two, Jesus was conceived and born like any other child of married parents......the miracle was how the creator Son of God became the person of Mary's child. Jesus never said anything about his mom being a virgin, but you will find that common belief in the Pagan religions which predate Jesus.

[It was commonly believed that sin was translated from human to human by sex]
 

WeberHome

New member
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A common theory-- one that I've encountered with quite a few Protestant
Bible expositors --is that Joseph could not be allowed to be Jesus' biological
father in order to circumvent Jeconiah's curse.

Most Gentiles are unaware of Jeconiah's curse, and I dare say totally
unaware of even Jeconiah himself (a.k.a. Jehoiakim and/or Coniah). He was
a very bad king of the Davidic dynasty; so bad that God black-listed his male
progeny. Here's the text of the curse.

†. Jer 22:29-30 . .O land, land, land, hear the word of Yhvh! Thus testified
Yhvh: Record this man as without succession, one who shall never be found
acceptable; for no man of his offspring shall be accepted to sit on the throne
of David and to rule again in Judah.

Jeconiah is squarely in Joseph's line.

†. Matt 1:11-16 . .and Josiah the father of Jeconiah . . . and Joseph the
husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

But the theory is futile. Problem is: when kids are adopted, they gain the
very same legal status as children born in the home; viz: they not only gain
the right to their father's name, but also a right to inherit; viz: the adopted
Jesus would have inherited Jeconiah's curse from Joseph just as legally as
any of the man's natural-born sons.

So if we take away Christ's inheritance rights to Jeconiah's curse, then we
must of necessity take away his inheritance rights to Solomon's throne too.

However; the wording "to rule again in Judah" indicates that the curse was
relatively brief.

The curse on Coniah's male progeny was limited to the time of his family's
jurisdiction in Judah. In other words: the curse was in effect only during the
era of the divided kingdom with Judah in the south and Samaria in the
north. That situation came to an end when Nebuchadnezzar crushed the
whole country and led first Samaria, and then later Judah, off to Babylonian
slavery.

When Christ returns to rule, the country of Israel will be unified. His
jurisdiction won't be limited to Judah within a divided kingdom, but will
dominate all of Eretz Israel. (Ezek 37:21-24)

So the curse doesn't apply to him. In point of fact, it didn't apply to Joseph
either seeing as how the curse ran its course only up to the time of the end
of the divided kingdom.

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GuySmiley

Well-known member
Is it symbolic of religious struggle against reality?

In the bible humans arise from:

-Breathing into a pile of dirt
-Manipulation of a rib
-Magic, out of nowhere (depending on whether you subscribe to the Preadamite fantasy)
-The usual way we make humans
-A special way that doesn't involve a human father

Stuart
Every one of those points applies to the beliefs of evolutionists too. :shocked:
 

RBBI

New member
Behold, a sower on a white horse went forth to sow, and in his hand was a toxon seedbow. And as he sowed, some seed fell upon compacted downtrodden soil of the heart by the side of the way. Other seed fell upon rocky soil of the heart that was full of sharp and jagged stones. Other seed fell upon contaminated soil of the heart that was full of thistles and thorns. But some seed fell upon soil of the heart that was tilled, sifted, purged, and virgin: and the Seed of the Word sprouted, and took deep root in the fertile soil; and a garden of foliage was produced, and then the stalk began to ascend. :)

Amen, as usual. :)
 

RBBI

New member
Because there is a chance that John 8:41 was right after all. Now, go to it and read it.

They were told their father was the devil, which means that they fornicated with other gods, as He complained about Israel all along going WHORING after other gods, which devils are behind.

It was not a comment about Yeshua's parentage, because it's not a dissimilar comparison being made, as you are trying to portray it. If it were the way you say, then the comment from the Pharisees should have been to relate to their NATURAL fathers as well. It's a literary tool, to compare one thing to another. Peace
 

Elia

Well-known member
Well, that is not true.

Bs"d

Yes that is true.

But, you probably already know that and are just pretending that you are stupid.


"Therefore know this day, and consider it in your heart, that Y-H-W-H He is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; THERE IS NO OTHER."
Deut 4:39
 

Zeke

Well-known member
Behold, a sower on a white horse went forth to sow, and in his hand was a toxon seedbow. And as he sowed, some seed fell upon compacted downtrodden soil of the heart by the side of the way. Other seed fell upon rocky soil of the heart that was full of sharp and jagged stones. Other seed fell upon contaminated soil of the heart that was full of thistles and thorns. But some seed fell upon soil of the heart that was tilled, sifted, purged, and virgin: and the Seed of the Word sprouted, and took deep root in the fertile soil; and a garden of foliage was produced, and then the stalk began to ascend. :)

Matt 13:33, Luke 17:20-21, Galatians 4:6, Those silly literalist Matthew 23:24.
 

RBBI

New member
The "problem" is, it takes a while before you realize that the spiritual IS literal in that you experience it literally, and the literal IS spiritual, also in that you experience it literally, spiritually. :) Peace
 

daqq

Well-known member
Amen, as usual. :)

Matt 13:33, Luke 17:20-21, Galatians 4:6, Those silly literalist Matthew 23:24.

So is the kingdom of Elohim, as if a man should cast seed into the soil, and sleeping and rising, night and day, and how the seed should germinate and sprout up, he knows not. For the earth brings forth fruit of herself: first the garden, (which is feminine) then the stalk, (which is masculine) after that the full head of grain in the stalk, (the produce-fruit). But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he sends out the sickle, for the harvest stands ready. :)
 

Ben Masada

New member
They were told their father was the devil, which means that they fornicated with other gods, as He complained about Israel all along going WHORING after other gods, which devils are behind.

No RBBI, there is nothing to do with the idolatry of fornication with other gods; the whole thing was about a dialogue between Jesus and the Jews who had believed in him. (John 8:31) At a specific point, Jesus probably realized that they were making a fool of him, got upset and said they were of the Devil their father. Since they seemed to have been peers with Jesus from youth, they revealed that they knew about the children who had been born as a result of the many rapes of young Jewish ladies by Roman soldiers. So, in a way of vengeance for Jesus' charge that they were children of the Devil, they revealed their knowledge of Jesus from infancy and that they were aware that Jesus had been born out of fornication as a result of a rape. (John 8:41)
 

RBBI

New member
And again, that does not a similarity comparison make. You're taking one line out of the text to build your case upon, but ignoring the literary device used. Peace
 
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