ECT Truth Cast To The Ground

[Interplanner]

This declaration in Daniel shows the same mind as the NT about the veiled OT. ie, a person could read the OT veiled and think it was all about on the ground (the old covenant, the land of israel).

Then there is the literalism question. How exactly do you throw truth to the ground? What would that look like?

Dan 8:12.

The passage is about the rebellion that destroyed Israel that came at the same time as Christ (cp the end of ch 9). Yes, it was the inevitable outcome of making all the old covenant's promises to be about the race and land, instead of Christ.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

the OT veiled

made up

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

This declaration in Daniel shows the same mind as the NT about the veiled OT. ie, a person could read the OT veiled and think it was all about on the ground (the old covenant, the land of israel).

Then there is the literalism question. How exactly do you throw truth to the ground? What would that look like?

Dan 8:12.

The passage is about the rebellion that destroyed Israel that came at the same time as Christ (cp the end of ch 9). Yes, it was the inevitable outcome of making all the old covenant's promises to be about the race and land, instead of Christ.

Daniel 8 is future, obviously.

 

[Interplanner]

made up

2 Cor 3

 

[Interplanner]

Daniel 8 is future, obviously.

to Daniel. ch 9 completes it saying when it --the rebellion that desolated--took place which is crisp historic fact.

oh I forgot--history is a sin in D'ism!

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

the rebellion that desolated

made up term

 

[Interplanner]

made up term

Nope it was chosen by the NIV and others who a light years ahead of our Hebrew. anyway, how different is a rebellion from an abomination? In another OT text, rebellion was 'witchcraft' right?

You are a historical ignoramus. The event described was said to take place 490 years in the future and guess where that is? The widespread rebellion of Judaizers in 1st century is well known and one book title puts the range of its span from 6 to 72 (the census reaction--Acts 5:37--to Masada).

Oh, I forgot, it is a sin to know history. And maybe to know that acts 5 and elsewhere refer to history.

Hope you'll get started on the total reconstruction of your understanding of the NT as you should.

 

[Interplanner]

No intelligent discussion can be started by the words 'obviously.' You have to give specific reasons. I believe that is why you put cartoons in your posts. Because D'ism is unintelligent.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

:chuckle:

 

[genuineoriginal]

This declaration in Daniel shows the same mind as the NT about the veiled OT. ie, a person could read the OT veiled and think it was all about on the ground (the old covenant, the land of israel).

Then there is the literalism question. How exactly do you throw truth to the ground? What would that look like?

Dan 8:12.

The passage is about the rebellion that destroyed Israel that came at the same time as Christ (cp the end of ch 9). Yes, it was the inevitable outcome of making all the old covenant's promises to be about the race and land, instead of Christ.

Daniel 8:1-12 (as explained in the rest of the chapter) was about Alexander the Great (the goat) conquering the Medes and the Persians (the ram), the four generals (four horns) that split up Alexander's empire on his death, and the rise of Antiochus Epiphanes (the little horn).

Daniel 8:9-12 9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. 10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.​

The phrase "cast down the truth to the ground" refers to the Hellinization of Israel under Antiochus Epiphenes.
The Maccabeen revolt in 166 BCE ended the time of the prophecy.
The rule of Antiochus Ephiphes over Israel acquired the title of "abomination of desolation" because of what he did to the Temple.
This title was later used in the gospels of Mark and Matthew to hide the words of Jesus in the Olivet Discourse when Jesus spoke of "Jerusalem surrounded by armies" as recorded in the gospel of Luke.

 

[Interplanner]

to hide the words of Jesus

This is really getting good folk! The words of Christ 'hide the words of Christ.' Bible study at its best!

 

[Interplanner]

Christ said the AofD was a PERSON who would come during the generation after him and ruin the country. It is obvious historical fact on all fronts. Mt24A is inseparable from 1st century Judea, and that's why the warnings of Christ there and Mt 10 are so graphic and specific. What a concept! That what christ said about that generation would actually be found to be grounded...in that generation!

 

[genuineoriginal]

to hide the words of Jesus

This is really getting good folk! The words of Christ 'hide the words of Christ.' Bible study at its best!

The words "abomination of desolation" used by the writers of Mark and Matthew hide the words that Jesus actually spoke.

You don't think that Jesus actually said "let the reader understand," do you?

 

[Interplanner]

The words "abomination of desolation" used by the writers of Mark and Matthew hide the words that Jesus actually spoke.

You don't think that Jesus actually said "let the reader understand," do you?

'Let the reader understand' was added by Matthew or Mark for those in early Christian groups who read to the others (a very small % of people read). This has nothing to do with the meaning of the AofD. That is fixed in Dan 8,9--he comes in 490 years and ruins the country in revolt against the prince who would come (Rome). that makes it the official interp of the expression.

 

[genuineoriginal]

'Let the reader understand' was added by Matthew or Mark for those in early Christian groups who read to the others (a very small % of people read).

No, the writers of Mark and Matthew put the phrase "let the reader understand" in their gospels to alert people that the words of Jesus had been changed and to give them a clue of what Jesus had been speaking of: the coming siege against Jerusalem.
I don't know why you are so willing to accept that Mark and Matthew added the phrase "let the reader understand" and so opposed to the obvious reason they added the phrase.

This has nothing to do with the meaning of the AofD. That is fixed in Dan 8,9--he comes in 490 years and ruins the country in revolt against the prince who would come (Rome). that makes it the official interp of the expression.

The passage about Antiochus Epiphanes found in Daniel 11 used the term "abomination that maketh desolate".
The events of Antiochus Epiphanes and the Maccabees was well known by that term during the time of the writing of the gospels.
The phrase was used to hide some details of the Olivet Discourse prophecy from the Romans.
Luke's rendition of the prophecy used the actual words of Jesus, which is why Luke did not contain either the phrase "abomination of desolation" or the phrase "let the reader understand".

 

[Rondonmonson]

Daniel 8:1-12 (as explained in the rest of the chapter) was about Alexander the Great (the goat) conquering the Medes and the Persians (the ram), the four generals (four horns) that split up Alexander's empire on his death, and the rise of Antiochus Epiphanes (the little horn).

Daniel 8:9-12 9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. 10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.​

The phrase "cast down the truth to the ground" refers to the Hellinization of Israel under Antiochus Epiphenes.
The Maccabeen revolt in 166 BCE ended the time of the prophecy.
The rule of Antiochus Ephiphes over Israel acquired the title of "abomination of desolation" because of what he did to the Temple.
This title was later used in the gospels of Mark and Matthew to hide the words of Jesus in the Olivet Discourse when Jesus spoke of "Jerusalem surrounded by armies" as recorded in the gospel of Luke.

Daniel 8:1-8 is about Alexander the Great defeating Persia. Daniel 8:9-12 which you quoted is about the Little Horn, which is the coming Anti-Christ. I have done an in depth exegesis on Daniel chapters 11 & 12 and Daniel 11:21-32 is about Antiochus Epiphanes, while verses 33-35 is the transition period until the END TIMES, whilst verses 36-45 is about the same Little Horn of Daniel chapters 7 and 8.

The HOSTS he casts down are those that are in charge of Jerusalem at the time, he does conquer them you know and rule as the Beast for 42 Months.

AE4 is never the little horn.

 

[Interplanner]

Daniel 8:1-8 is about Alexander the Great defeating Persia. Daniel 8:9-12 which you quoted is about the Little Horn, which is the coming Anti-Christ. I have done an in depth exegesis on Daniel chapters 11 & 12 and Daniel 11:21-32 is about Antiochus Epiphanes, while verses 33-35 is the transition period until the END TIMES, whilst verses 36-45 is about the same Little Horn of Daniel chapters 7 and 8.

The HOSTS he casts down are those that are in charge of Jerusalem at the time, he does conquer them you know and rule as the Beast for 42 Months.

AE4 is never the little horn.

Sorry, Ron, it is none of that. We have to go only with what Christ said in Mt24, etc, which is the normal unsplit meaning of the 490 years ending in the mid-first century, with those rebellious characters who claimed so much about God helping them defeat enemies. Only to ruin the country, which is how the 490 years ends. But Messiah is a success in his redemptive work, at the same time.

 

[Rondonmonson]

Sorry, Ron, it is none of that. We have to go only with what Christ said in Mt24, etc, which is the normal unsplit meaning of the 490 years ending in the mid-first century, with those rebellious characters who claimed so much about God helping them defeat enemies. Only to ruin the country, which is how the 490 years ends. But Messiah is a success in his redemptive work, at the same time.

You mean Jesus who quoted Daniel who stated in Daniel 12:1-2 that these things would happen at the END TIMES when the people are resurrected? When Micheal STANDS UP just like in Rev. ch. 12.

Of course you don't get the 70th Week. Some people just weren't called to prophecy.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Daniel 8:1-8 is about Alexander the Great defeating Persia. Daniel 8:9-12 which you quoted is about the Little Horn, which is the coming Anti-Christ.

The little horn is about Antiochus Epiphanes, not "The" antichrist.

I have done an in depth exegesis on Daniel chapters 11 & 12 and Daniel 11:21-32 is about Antiochus Epiphanes, while verses 33-35 is the transition period until the END TIMES, whilst verses 36-45 is about the same Little Horn of Daniel chapters 7 and 8.

Check out this link to see how verses 33-45 also are talking about Antiochus Epiphanes.
https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/jamieson-fausset-brown/daniel/daniel-11.html

The HOSTS he casts down are those that are in charge of Jerusalem at the time, he does conquer them you know and rule as the Beast for 42 Months.

AE4 is never the little horn.

The little horn of Daniel 8:9-12 is Antiochus Epiphanes and can be no one else.
Dispensationalists claim "The" antichrist comes from the revived Roman empire, but the little horn is one of the last kings of the Grecian empire that Alexander the Great created.

Daniel 8:21-23 21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. 22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. 23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.​

 

[genuineoriginal]

Of course you don't get the 70th Week.

You mean the week when God confirms His new covenant with the many and stops sacrifice and oblation in the middle of the week when Jesus was crucified?

Daniel 9:27a 27a And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease​

Matthew 26:28 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.​

Matthew 27:51 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;​

Some people just weren't called to prophecy.

The proper name for those people is Dispensationalists.