ECT True or False question (Billy Graham)

[glorydaz]

That idea is not found in the Bible, but this one is:

Philippians 2:12 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.​

Oh, you think that says to work FOR your own salvation. That explains it. Have you ever even read that verse in context?

We are to follow them who through faith and patience inherit the promise.

Hebrews 6:10-15 10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. 11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: 12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. 13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, 14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. 15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.​

There you give us verses that speak of the PROMISES given to Abraham....nothing to do with salvation.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Oh, you think that says to work FOR your own salvation. That explains it.

Maybe you can't read good?
The verse states to work OUT your own salvation, not FOR.

There you give us verses that speak of the PROMISES given to Abraham....nothing to do with salvation.

Have you ever even read those verses in context?

Hebrews 6:9-12 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. 10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. 11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: 12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.​

 

[glorydaz]

Maybe you can't read good?
The verse states to work OUT your own salvation, not FOR.

So you shouldn't have a problem explaining how one works out his salvation.

Are you working your way OUT of being saved, or what?
Do you think that proves a person can LOSE their salvation?

Have you ever even read those verses in context?

Hebrews 6:9-12 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. 10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. 11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: 12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.​

Things that accompanied being saved from bondage in Egypt, or being saved from one's enemies?

The plural promises? Like the land promises or the promise of a king to sit on David's Throne. What are you claiming there?

 

[genuineoriginal]

Are you working your way OUT of being saved, or what?

That would be silly.

Do you think that proves a person can LOSE their salvation?

OSAS starts with the false premise that a person is able to receive salvation (eternal life) before the return of Jesus.

 

[meshak]

That would be silly.


OSAS starts with the false premise that a person is able to receive salvation (eternal life) before the return of Jesus.

You cannot claim to be saved until Jesus gives approval.

John 20:31 KJV - But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Jesus' followers have a hope of eternal life.

 

[glorydaz]

That would be silly.


OSAS starts with the false premise that a person is able to receive salvation (eternal life) before the return of Jesus.

You call it a false premise that a person is saved by grace through faith? That a person is begotten by the Gospel? That a person is quickened by the Spirit? That a person is created a new creature...in Christ Jesus?

Scripture tells us we only await the redemption of our body. :dizzy:

You call it a false premise that we have been delivered from the wrath to come?

1 Thess. 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.​

What Bible do you read, GO? It isn't the NWT by any chance is it?

 

[genuineoriginal]

You call it a false premise that a person is saved by grace through faith? That a person is begotten by the Gospel? That a person is quickened by the Spirit? That a person is created a new creature...in Christ Jesus?

The Bible states all of those things, but OSAS believers can't understanding the timing.

Scripture tells us we only await the redemption of our body. :dizzy:

Yep, that is called Salvation and Eternal Life.

You call it a false premise that we have been delivered from the wrath to come?

The Bible states that also, but OSAS believers can't understand that the deliverance is conditional.

What Bible do you read, GO? It isn't the NWT by any chance is it?

You may not have noticed, but I use the KJV for most of my Bible quotes.
The difference is that I actually study the Bible to find out what it really says from Genesis to Revelation instead of relying on the doctrines of men and cherry picking verses to create a narrative that doesn't match the rest of the Bible.

 

[turbosixx]

Sorry it’s been a while. I’ll have more time in the next few days.

Thanks for the conversation. This is something I really want to understand and will do my best to see it from your perspective and give you my current viewpoint.
I would like to reply to each point here but I’m afraid it would grow into a monster of a post and continue to do so if I do. Therefore, I will address some “root” points. If there is a point I don’t address but you really want to hear my view on it, please point it out.

Two things: 1) I hate that such a thing becomes a 'me' show. Is it Jesus in me? Well then praise Him.

I agree without doubt that it is Jesus working in me. What I find interesting is, how does Jesus come to be “in me”. It’s obvious it’s by choice or Jesus would be in everyone. Once in us, do we have a choice in whether Jesus works in us? I believe again, it’s obvious that we do have a choice of what and how Jesus works in us. I also believe we have a choice if Jesus continues in us. I believe if we look at this verse in John, it makes sense to me that we first have to be in Jesus and then he will be in us.
Jn. 15: 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

Is it me? Well 1 Corinthians 4:7 Philippians 2:13

I believe it is us but doing God's will. If we go back to John 15, the second verse says 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, This is someone in Christ that isn’t bearing fruit. That’s not Jesus’ fault.

I found it interesting that you used Phil. 2:13. That passage leading up to that verse is about obedience and uses Jesus as an example.
8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,

2) I am convinced salvation is not conditioned upon how well I perform/obey, but upon Him Who saves.

If that statement were true, would there be a need for a single warning written to Christians? I think not but we see many warnings. I’ll point out one.

In 1 Corinthians 9 near the end, Paul uses an example of a race and tells Christians, 24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it.
If salvation is solely conditioned on Jesus, then wouldn’t they have already obtained the prize? He then goes on to say that he strives himself so that after having saved others he himself would not be disqualified. To drive his point home in the next chapter, he reminds them of those whom God destroyed in the wilderness even though they ate, drank and followed Christ.
11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come. 12 Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.

I don't understand how this passage can apply to someone whose salvation is unconditional.

 

[turbosixx]

If any part of our faith goes back to 'obey' and works, I'm not hopeful.

What I see here is a mixture of old and new. There is a reason the old way didn’t work and it wasn’t because people failed to obey. The old law could not forgive sins but the new can. You say “faith goes back to obey”. I would suggest to you that’s what faith is, obedience. Look at what James says about faith and works.
James 2:20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
He says faith was completed by works.

What's interesting is that those who proclaim faith alone use the passage in Roman 4 which uses the same quote James uses in the next verse.
23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.
He says his faith was completed by his works fulfilling the scripture. In Romans Paul is proving works "of the law" cannot justify anyone, not works done in Christ.

James then finishes of with faith without works is dead.

Moses, himself was kept from the promised land from a double hit. Okay, not 'heaven' but still, if he couldn't do that, I'm pretty sure I can't do this.

I actually take comfort in Moses not making it to the promised land. If someone God regards as faithful as Moses makes mistakes and God still welcomes him in, surely I will make mistake too.

The carrot on a stick rewards system is me 'doing' and 'gaining.' It isn't relationship centered, to me.

I agree it’s relationship but isn’t that a two way street?

When I was looking at other examples: Matthew 7:23, the 'reward' system didn't matter at all. Here these guys WERE doing the things required for what they thought they were earning

I would suggest you look at that passage again. Jesus says exactly why they’re condemned and it’s not because they weren’t doing the things required.

 

[Lon]

Sorry it’s been a while. I’ll have more time in the next few days.

Thanks for the conversation. This is something I really want to understand and will do my best to see it from your perspective and give you my current viewpoint.
I would like to reply to each point here but I’m afraid it would grow into a monster of a post and continue to do so if I do. Therefore, I will address some “root” points. If there is a point I don’t address but you really want to hear my view on it, please point it out.


I agree without doubt that it is Jesus working in me. What I find interesting is, how does Jesus come to be “in me”. It’s obvious it’s by choice or Jesus would be in everyone. Once in us, do we have a choice in whether Jesus works in us? I believe again, it’s obvious that we do have a choice of what and how Jesus works in us. I also believe we have a choice if Jesus continues in us. I believe if we look at this verse in John, it makes sense to me that we first have to be in Jesus and then he will be in us.
Jn. 15: 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.


I believe it is us but doing God's will. If we go back to John 15, the second verse says 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, This is someone in Christ that isn’t bearing fruit. That’s not Jesus’ fault.

I found it interesting that you used Phil. 2:13. That passage leading up to that verse is about obedience and uses Jesus as an example.
8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,

Look at 1 John 2:19 as well. All of these scriptures inform my theology. I'm not MAD but you could almost accuse me of it sometimes. Sometimes I disagree over 'audience' and think it is rather Hebrew, and other times I disagree on intended audience. It is obvious that Hebrew and James are written to Jews. I agree with MAD on that. However, I see practical teaching in James for us (MAD does too). However, I do not believe 'do works' is James' message. Because he is a Jew, it certainly is part of his theology, but he never does say 'Do works!' He rather says it is a sign one belongs to God. Not that 'we' then become fruit inspectors, but rather his whole argument is that 'effective' Christianity toward the world is about fruit. He does compare to unsaved demons in that book, but again, his point isn't doing works. Demons aren't suddenly 'saved' if they do works. I'm convinced and forgive me for disagreement: There is no works other than God's works. None. As soon as you assert such, imho, it becomes a 'me' show. I'm nobody without Christ. Further, I don't believe a new creation can do BUT new createdness. 1 John 2:19 I don't believe it is even remotely possible. Why? BECAUSE IT THEN makes your salvation, good works, relationship with God, 'dependent upon you, alone.' Marriage is a good example for discussion: You CANNOT EVER assume my marriage is dependent upon me. It never is. It is WHOLLY dependent upon 'we.' I argue with atheists over this all the time: 1 John 2:19 "No true scotsman." They hate the argument but it is wholly true. You CANNOT be bound to an individual that doesn't exist - thus for the atheist? Delusional. We can't trust them. They literally 'think' they were Christians before. :nono: NOT POSSIBLE. That is important to your and my theology: it is IMPOSSIBLE to be a Christian without Christ. This 'may' point to something important in your life. For me, it wasn't that I was without Christ. It was rather that I was foolish and thought He'd abandon me if I didn't perform as a bride, keeping my oil lamp full etc. THAT guy isn't married. If he/she were, the OTHER spouse has the oil if I don't: This is Christianity. Again, I believe 'marriage' to be really about Jesus and the church. Ephesians 5 really drilled this home to me. I wasn't understanding the marriage thing. I always thought I wasn't worthy (and I was right). Look at Ephesians 5: JESUS makes the bride holy. The Lord Jesus Christ does this and He does it alone. Between you and I my position is monergism BECAUSE He also carries the 'perfection' side of marriage. The marriage to Christ does NOT leave me deserving. It never did. It is about Him and what HE desires, wholly, at that point.

If that statement were true, would there be a need for a single warning written to Christians? I think not but we see many warnings. I’ll point out one.

I disagree btw. There are no warnings to 'Christians.' I agree with MAD on this point.

In 1 Corinthians 9 near the end, Paul uses an example of a race and tells Christians, 24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it.
If salvation is solely conditioned on Jesus, then wouldn’t they have already obtained the prize? He then goes on to say that he strives himself so that after having saved others he himself would not be disqualified. To drive his point home in the next chapter, he reminds them of those whom God destroyed in the wilderness even though they ate, drank and followed Christ.
11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come. 12 Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.

It 'might' be helpful to ask a MAD about this, because this is written to the gentile. For me: "Prize." What is it? Salvation? Is that an assumption or the actual intent? What IS the prize, Paul speaks of? VERY important we get that right. Is it a warning? I don't even see that, Turbo. I see it as an aspiring speech. "Let's win!" Put it this way: In a race, all would be Christian by his analogy, no? Do all BUT the best runner lose salvation accordingly? What about the fat kid or the kid that stumbles? Out? Is it necessary to 'try' by Paul's analogy? If so, FOR salvation? Once I began asking a lot more questions, my quick and dirty (and worse, my seminary's quick and dirty), no longer seemed appropriate. If perfect love casts out all fear (and it and HE does), then this wasn't measuring up for me as far as what God was trying to tell me about me and about Himself. :think:

I don't understand how this passage can apply to someone whose salvation is unconditional.

Can you, if it is not at all about salvation? What other prize would there be or could there be to win? It is important. The Apostle Paul drew on the prize and Olympic sport analogies often. There are numerous times it 'cannot' be about salvation. In one instance: Crowns, by example. Paul says his crown is often his converted churches. What prize then, would running affect for Paul? To me, that IS life and death and it is important that we have this kind of effect on the world. Many of us are too caught up in 'us' imho. The day I saw my disciples (those I brought to Christ and helped grow) making other disciples themselves, I cried. I remember that day like it was yesterday. It was at that point I had 'won a prize.' THE PRIZE is always the Lord Jesus Christ. Anything associated with Him is also a prize. Everything associated with Him is a prize.

I have never met a perfect Christian or perfect runner, only Jesus. Not ONE of us, imho, could keep our salvation. I'm incredibly convinced of that. Do I want to run the race? Yes. And to win, but not salvation. I want to win BECAUSE He saved me. Loves me. I want to do whatever I can. No, I can't earn anything. Luke 7:47,48 1 John 4:18 :e4e: In Him -Lon

 

[Lon]

What I see here is a mixture of old and new. There is a reason the old way didn’t work and it wasn’t because people failed to obey. The old law could not forgive sins but the new can. You say “faith goes back to obey”. I would suggest to you that’s what faith is, obedience. Look at what James says about faith and works.
James 2:20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
He says faith was completed by works.

"Faith." Not 'salvation.' Wasn't Isaac for us, as well? IOW, it was God's design and a picture of Christ. Salvation is incomplete without Christ. I YET believe 'not your work, GOD's work Ephesians 2:10

It must be said again, that I'm not very classic in interpreting James. A good number (maybe a lot?) of others agree with me, but it is important that I say I depart from 'works salvation' groups (Catholics among the largest but also many Protestants as well) and MAD (this book is only written to Jews thus doesn't apply or is teaching something only for Jews). James doesn't say 'salvation.' He compares works to those who believe there is a God, but his point, imho, isn't about Salvation. It is about works and NOT works for salvation. He is, imho, saying that faith without the fruit of God doesn't accomplish much here on earth. The thief on the cross would have had faith without works, for instance. Because of that, James cannot have meant 'salvation' imh (but studied) opinion.

What's interesting is that those who proclaim faith alone use the passage in Roman 4 which uses the same quote James uses in the next verse.
23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.
He says his faith was completed by his works fulfilling the scripture. In Romans Paul is proving works "of the law" cannot justify anyone, not works done in Christ.

James then finishes of with faith without works is dead.

Agree BUT not to what you are thinking I agree with. I don't know of one scripture that says "Do works or you lose your salvation!" Not one. I also don't see any 'warning' scripture of loss of Salvation in scripture. I used to, but I believe 'my' fear read-into the passages. As I've reread every chapter and verse 'without the lens of fear,' I've completely eradicated 'warning' from my vocabulary. I don't believe any of these 'fit' that assumption any longer. Fear is a horrible Bible hermeneutic.

I actually take comfort in Moses not making it to the promised land. If someone God regards as faithful as Moses makes mistakes and God still welcomes him in, surely I will make mistake too.

:up: It is this 'comfort' that we need. Romans 10:13 Is it correct? "All?" Truly?

I agree it’s relationship but isn’t that a two way street?

Sometimes. At times, I submit, it is one-way. When my father was dying with Alzheimer's, Completely one-sided for my mother. Question: Were they still married? Why? He certainly wasn't keeping his end of the bargain 'if' it was conditioned upon a bargain. Do we Christians need to better understand covenants vs. bargains? I submit we do. I told my wife specifically: Marriage is NOT a bargain, it is a covenant that imho CANNOT be broken. I don't think we understand covenants are NOT promises. They are 'who we are' and simply embracing who we are.

By example, my father was still married though unable to keep a promise or bargain, BECAUSE he entered a covenant and NOT a bargain. A covenant my mother was COMPLETELY able to keep (within human ability that is).

I would suggest you look at that passage again. Jesus says exactly why they’re condemned and it’s not because they weren’t doing the things required.

I WILL Look again (doing so, but just had this same disagreement with Barbarian, a Catholic, yesterday)...but... Disagree -->

Matthew 7:21

　 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.　
Matthew 7:22
　 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’　
Matthew 7:23
　 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’　

So, these were always workers of lawlessness EVEN THOUGH they cast out demons and did many other works in His name.

"I NEVER knew you" isn't "I did know you once."

We either get it right, or we get it wrong, right?

I WANT to get it right. Inklings vs what is really there is important. I realize I disagree with most Catholics and a good number of Protestants to boot. There are few MADs and few Calvinists. Most are Arminian. I've attended Arminian churches most of my life. It took me a long time of Bible reading to get away from what I believe is reading-into the Biblical texts. In Him -Lon

 

[musterion]

Lon,

You still don't acknowledge that it's possible for someone to be neither Calvinists nor Arminian. You should.

 

[glorydaz]

The Bible states all of those things, but OSAS believers can't understanding the timing.

Rather, YOU don't understand the timing. Plus, you don't understand what it means that believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit as an earnest. Jesus was sealed....and we are sealed, also....unto the day of redemption.

John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
​

Yep, that is called Salvation and Eternal Life.

No, that is called the redemption of the body, for those who have the firstfruits of the Spirit. (the earnest) Romans 8:23

You're confusing the "redemption" with the resurrection of the body. The just are those with the earnest of the Spirit...the earnest being the down payment.

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.​

The Bible states that also, but OSAS believers can't understand that the deliverance is conditional.

Rather, you doubt the power of God to keep us unto the day of redemption. He's in charge of our deliverance...not us. And, in case you didn't notice, this is past tense....delivered and translated....and forgiveness of sins. :readthis:

Colossians 1:12-14
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:​

You may not have noticed, but I use the KJV for most of my Bible quotes.
The difference is that I actually study the Bible to find out what it really says from Genesis to Revelation instead of relying on the doctrines of men and cherry picking verses to create a narrative that doesn't match the rest of the Bible.

I've noticed you use KJV when it fits your purposes. I do have to wonder, however, because you "cherry pick" certain verses while ignoring the entire context which shows clearly you are misreading the verse you offer.

 

[glorydaz]

Lon,

You still don't acknowledge that it's possible for someone to be neither Calvinists nor Arminian. You should.

Yep....I, for one, am between the two.

 

[Lon]

I am not living in a sinful lifestyle as you must be.

:doh: Do you WANT to compare sinful lives on TOL??? Would that prove who is and who is not a Christian? :doh:

Luke 5:31 The thread is about the Doctor we have in Christ, NOT the fatality of the disease. You are thinking 'vegan lifestyle.'

Musterion is thinking 'whole new heart' transplant.

In a nutshell, it is about whether God can save the worst-heart scenario.

Example: I have a friend who just went in for heart surgery. She came out with a stent. Two weeks later, she is back in. Why? 1) you 'might' rightly say because she didn't follow instructions (she did some, didn't others). 2) you 'might' rightly say the doctors let her go home too soon and should have done more.

In my friend's story, both 1 and 2. In your and mine with sin: Sin is fatal! EVERY time! Think of the O.T. as pre-emptive heart trouble observations. They KNEW that the OT rules and laws couldn't save them, only help them live longer. Same today: You can do NOTHING to extend your life. Matthew 6:27 :nono:

 

[Lon]

Lon,

You still don't acknowledge that it's possible for someone to be neither Calvinists nor Arminian. You should.

I was intimating that, of course, if not clear enough. My apologies for NOT being clear enough. On this, I'd suggest the MAD position and Calvinist position is nearly the same because 1) it embraces the 5 solas (as do I) and 2) because it is founded in monergism (both are), not synergism. Thus, I think we often nod toward the other in our theologies respectfully because they both necessarily agree with one another essentially. Granted MAD may not wholly embrace monergism at first, but it QUICKLY ends up in His hands after that.

 

[meshak]

Lon, can I join in your discussion with turbo?

thanks.

@Lon

 

[musterion]

The main disagreement about monergism is the presumption, which I remind you Calvin himself held in much of his writing, of active reprobation, dual predestination or whatever you want to call it. It is the wickedest form of blasphemy. The idea that the elect believe only because God selected them to is also a denial of salvation through faith. But we've had this argument many times and need not rehash it here.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Rather, YOU don't understand the timing. Plus, you don't understand what it means that believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit as an earnest. Jesus was sealed....and we are sealed, also....unto the day of redemption.

No, that is called the redemption of the body, for those who have the firstfruits of the Spirit. (the earnest) Romans 8:23

You're confusing the "redemption" with the resurrection of the body. The just are those with the earnest of the Spirit...the earnest being the down payment.

If the earnest is the down payment, the full payment is the redemption at the resurrection at the second coming of Jesus.
You need to get the timing right.

Also, you are still extremely confused about what "sealed" means.

Rather, you doubt the power of God to keep us unto the day of redemption.

I have no doubt about the power of God, that is not where our disagreement lies.
The problem lies in your doubt over whether you can endure until the end without God doing all the work.
God will not do the work He gave you to do, but He will give you everything you need to do the work He gives you to do.
Whether you choose to do His work or not and whether you choose to use what He gives you to do the work or not, is up to you and you alone.
Your free will will not be overridden by God when it comes to anything that will affect your salvation, since doing that would defeat His plan of choosing only those who love Him enough to endure unto the end.

He's in charge of our deliverance...not us. And, in case you didn't notice, this is past tense....delivered and translated....and forgiveness of sins.

Your arguments remind me of Peter in this passage:

Matthew 16:21-25 21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. 22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. 23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. 24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.​

God has established that anyone that believes and endures until the end will be saved.
You, like Peter in the passage, argue against the hard part.
Your argument, like Peter's argument, is arguing against the declared will of God.

If you don't want to do the will of God and endure until the end to show Him the depth of your love, you will lose out.

 

[musterion]

If the earnest is the down payment, the full payment is the redemption at the resurrection at the second coming of Jesus.
You need to get the timing right.

Also, you are still extremely confused about what "sealed" means.


I have no doubt about the power of God, that is not where our disagreement lies.
The problem lies in your doubt over whether you can endure until the end without God doing all the work.
God will not do the work He gave you to do, but He will give you everything you need to do the work He gives you to do.
Whether you choose to do His work or not and whether you choose to use what He gives you to do the work or not, is up to you and you alone.
Your free will will not be overridden by God when it comes to anything that will affect your salvation, since doing that would defeat His plan of choosing only those who love Him enough to endure unto the end.


Your arguments remind me of Peter in this passage:

Matthew 16:21-25 21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. 22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. 23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. 24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.​

God has established that anyone that believes and endures until the end will be saved.
You, like Peter in the passage, argue against the hard part.
Your argument, like Peter's argument, is arguing against the declared will of God.

If you don't want to do the will of God and endure until the end to show Him the depth of your love, you will lose out.

Give it up, you've been refuted. Now you're flailing.

I dub thee forevermore...

Refutio the Clown.

Give it up, Refutio.