ECT True or False question (Billy Graham)

True or False question (Billy Graham)

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glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
Danoh said:
I related the following account on here, long ago.

I had just led someone to the Lord through the gospel of our salvation.

I then checked to make sure he had that right, just in case he might later encounter some legalist worker bee.

After I informed him that was what I was about to do, I then asked him 'so now what happens when you sin?'

He responded with "well, Christ died for our sins, so that means I'm forgiven."

But then, just as quickly, a devious smile came over his face (kind of like that devious look of Puddy Tat's, when he looks over at a seemingly helpless Tweety Bird, and licks his chops in anticipation of what he misjudged will be an easy meal).

At which point the guy deviously said to me, "wait a minute, that means I can do whatever I want..."

I thought to myself 'okay, he gets it: he gets eternal security; he gets that grace is unmerited...now it is clearly time for some Romans 6...'
Click to expand...


You were wrong. He didn't get it at all. Full stop.

Spoiler
Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

And we went into that...

For the Scripture does not assume that the love of Christ is going to constrain anyone to either trust in Him for their salvation, nor to express gratitude towards Him for said free gift in their walk and or service.

It just does not. As it should be.

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

The Corinthians are one of the best examples in all of Scripture that a grace that is unable ri risk its being repeatedly abused, is not the umerited grace of God in His Son.

1 Corinthians 1:4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; 1:5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

The fact is that many a Believer is an ungrateful Believer.

Due to their prior upbringing.

To how strong that might be in each of them whether for good or bad.

And due to the fact that until the Believer gets in and stays in His Word, allowing it to renew his or her mind to the mind of Christ, each Believer remains conformed unto this world's fallen value system of good and bad, and to one extent or another, and that is worse in some than it is in others.

In contrast to the automatically ungrateful Corinthians were the following...

1 Thessalonians 1:2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers; 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

The guy I mentioned above, had been the leader of a street gang.

All he had known was to assert his will on others under the threat of a very real violence his having risen to that leadership by force had long since been his life.

All he had known was to take from others.

He still struggles with that to this day.

He still struggles with...

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

These issues are different in degree for each Believer.

Thank God then for Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.
Click to expand...

You can't sweet talk people into believing. The guy was not ready to hear, and you simply talked yourself into thinking you'd convinced him of anything.
 
God's Truth

God's Truth

New member
Danoh said:
I related the following account on here, long ago.

I had just led someone to the Lord through the gospel of our salvation.

I then checked to make sure he had that right, just in case he might later encounter some legalist worker bee.

After I informed him that was what I was about to do, I then asked him 'so now what happens when you sin?'

He responded with "well, Christ died for our sins, so that means I'm forgiven."

But then, just as quickly, a devious smile came over his face (kind of like that devious look of Puddy Tat's, when he looks over at a seemingly helpless Tweety Bird, and licks his chops in anticipation of what he misjudged will be an easy meal).

At which point the guy deviously said to me, "wait a minute, that means I can do whatever I want..."

I thought to myself 'okay, he gets it: he gets eternal security; he gets that grace is unmerited...now it is clearly time for some Romans 6...'

Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

And we went into that...

For the Scripture does not assume that the love of Christ is going to constrain anyone to either trust in Him for their salvation, nor to express gratitude towards Him for said free gift in their walk and or service.

It just does not. As it should be.

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

The Corinthians are one of the best examples in all of Scripture that a grace that is unable ri risk its being repeatedly abused, is not the umerited grace of God in His Son.

1 Corinthians 1:4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; 1:5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

The fact is that many a Believer is an ungrateful Believer.

Due to their prior upbringing.

To how strong that might be in each of them whether for good or bad.

And due to the fact that until the Believer gets in and stays in His Word, allowing it to renew his or her mind to the mind of Christ, each Believer remains conformed unto this world's fallen value system of good and bad, and to one extent or another, and that is worse in some than it is in others.

In contrast to the automatically ungrateful Corinthians were the following...

1 Thessalonians 1:2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers; 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

The guy I mentioned above, had been the leader of a street gang.

All he had known was to assert his will on others under the threat of a very real violence his having risen to that leadership by force had long since been his life.

All he had known was to take from others.

He still struggles with that to this day.

He still struggles with...

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

These issues are different in degree for each Believer.

Thank God then for Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.
Click to expand...

What you did reminds me of this:

Matthew 23:15
 
drbrumley

drbrumley

Well-known member
genuineoriginal said:
Maybe you forgot to tell Paul that the scriptures were not to be read by us?

2 Timothy 3:16
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:​

Click to expand...

Well, that's rather presumptuous.
 
drbrumley

drbrumley

Well-known member
genuineoriginal said:
Maybe you forgot to tell Paul that the scriptures were not to be read by us?

2 Timothy 3:16
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:​

Click to expand...

I guess I better go out and kill me a goat and sacrifice it...
 
God's Truth

God's Truth

New member
Some great studying about obeying I have been doing...

Paul says we have to do more than just believe! See Romans 13:11.

This scripture proves we have to obey first: 2 Cor 6:17.

Carnal minded people prove we have to stop sinning to be saved. See Romans 8:7-8. Not all are only interested in pleasing their flesh.

Jesus gave himself to those who are eager to do good. Titus 2:14.

Give up sin---Receive Jesus. Romans 8:3.

God lives with the one who is sorry for their sins. Isaiah 57:15

Work our your salvation and after that, you are not to sin! 2 Cor 10:6; 1 Thess 4:6; 2 Thess 1:8, 9; Hebrews 2:2

To those who say Jesus did not preach the good news: Hebrews 2:3

Must repent to be saved. 2 Timothy 2:25

No ceremonial works --- that is the 'no works'. Romans 4:7

Believe and Obey

Wrong doers will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 16:26

1 Cor 6:9

Galatians 5:21

I know his command leads to eternal life. John 12:50

Rebukes faith alone --- 1 Cor 15:34

Cleansing happened when one had faith & obedience to the word! Ephesians 2:8-9; 5:25, 26

Proof that the works Paul speaks of that we are not saved by is the ceremonial works --- 1 Cor 7:19
 
musterion

musterion

Well-known member
glorydaz said:
Big assumption there. LOL
Click to expand...

TRUE, but such is the nature of salvation by grace through faith without works...only God and an individual can ever know what that individual truly believes (side note: all of Christendom has been constructed in denial of that fact).

Paul seems to at times have been led to suspect he made wrong assumptions about some folks in Corinth and Galatia, but still hoped for the best.
 
God's Truth

God's Truth

New member
musterion said:
TRUE, but such is the nature of salvation by grace through faith without works...only God and an individual can ever know what that individual truly believes (side note: all of Christendom has been constructed in denial of that fact).

Paul seems to at times have been led to suspect he made wrong assumptions about some folks in Corinth and Galatia, but still hoped for the best.
Click to expand...

What Paul says to those in Galatia proves you wrong.

Paul doesn't rebuke people in Galatia for obeying Jesus too much.

Paul rebukes the people in Galatia for thinking they had to do the purification/ceremonial works.

That proves the 'not of works' is about the ceremonial works.
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
musterion said:
TRUE, but such is the nature of salvation by grace through faith without works...only God and an individual can ever know what that individual truly believes (side note: all of Christendom has been constructed in denial of that fact).

Paul seems to at times have been led to suspect he made wrong assumptions about some folks in Corinth and Galatia, but still hoped for the best.
Click to expand...

Exactly so. :thumb:
 
genuineoriginal

genuineoriginal

New member
Danoh said:
Rightly divided, as to who, what, where, when, why, and how, within Scripture's own timeline - Time Past...But Now...The Ages to Come..."

2 Tim. 2:15; Ephesians 2:11, 13, and 7.

In remembrance of Rom.5: 6-8 - in each our stead.
Click to expand...

You don't divide them rightly when you divide them.

What Does 2 Timothy 2:15 Mean by 'Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth'?
Despite what many teach today, the words in the Greek do not mean "to divide the Bible into sections".

many dispensationalists teach a division between what they see as the Jewish portions and the Church portions of the Word of God. And on that basis, classic dispensationalism postulates separate programs for Israel and the Gentile church, extending out into eternity - one group of people in the New Heaven, the other group of people on the New Earth. There is some degree of disagreement among dispensationalists about which group will be where for eternity. And there is also significant disagreement among them about where to "cut and divide" the Bible between Jewish parts and Church parts, and there is significant disagreement among them about the number of dispensations, where they begin and end, whether or not they overlap, and so on.

the covenant theology view in general says that "rightly dividing" in 2nd Timothy 2:15 simply means "accurately teaching" God's Word. As a result, in contrast to the dispensationalist view, what I'm calling the covenant theology view teaches that there is one program of God, encompassing both Jew and Gentile, beginning before the foundation of the world and extending out into eternity - and that we will all be together in the New Heavens and New Earth. And it says that God's plan is manifested in two covenants, which Scripture calls the Old and the New, within the over-arching framework of one unified plan of redemption.

In New Testament times, orthotomeo was primarily a civil engineering term. It was used, for example, as a road building term. The idea of the word was to cut straight, or to guide on a straight path. The idea is to cut a roadway in a straight manner, so that people who will travel over that road can arrive at their destination directly, without deviation. Orthotomeo was also used as a mining term. It meant to drill a straight mine shaft so that the miners can get quickly and safely to the "mother lode."

There is another word in Greek, katatomeo, which means "to cut into sections." But that is not the word that the Apostle Paul, under divine inspiration, uses here in 2nd Timothy 2:15. Paul is not talking about "rightly dividing" in terms of dissecting the Word of God, or cutting it into sections based on Jew and Gentile, or Israel and Church, or any other criterion. It's interesting that the Apostle Paul does use that other word - katatomeo, cutting up - in Philippians 3:2, where he says, literally, "beware of those who would divide you up" - in other words, beware of those who would try to make a difference among believers between Jews and Gentiles.

So what is the proper meaning of orthotomeo - "rightly dividing" the Word of truth? What is intended is not the dividing of Scripture, not cutting it up, but teaching Scripture accurately, as a single, unified whole, without being turned aside by false teaching or man-made agendas.​
 
genuineoriginal

genuineoriginal

New member
God's Truth said:
The Jews used to have to do works of the law to clean and justify themselves. Those are the works no one does anymore because faith in Jesus' blood is what cleans us.

That doesn't mean we don't have to obey to get saved, it means we don't have to get circumcised and sacrifice animals.
Click to expand...

I agree.
The question that needs to be answered is what we need to to avoid damnation.
 
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