toldailytopic: The Catholic Church: God's official church? Or, theology gone astray?

[csuguy]

You know better than that.

What do you claim happened that changed the promise of Jesus?

I'm not saying Jesus' promised changed - I'm just disagreeing with your interpretation of it.

 

[csuguy]

Well, I would say No to that. The faith "once for all delivered to the saints" is still unfolding in understanding of it. Going deeper, but not a wholly new train of thought. Each rung of the ladder stands on the rungs below, each in ascending order.
This is how we now what is validly passed on.

I don't mind passing on revelation as absolute - but theology (doctrine and dogma) and most traditions are man made, and as such - no matter how much time has passed by or how many have looked at it - are fallible. Of course, this is a fundamental difference in the approach of Catholics and Protestants

To a certain degree, I do respect the logic behind accepting tradition, but it doesn't work for me personally. I'm not one to accept tradition because it is tradition.

The breaking of bread and feeding the 4,000 and the 5,000 show a definite heirarchy. Jesus was teaching Apostolic church governance those days and others I am sure. He fed the Apostles always first: not globally. Globally leads to divisions. Unity is fostered by visible Church Authority.

I think you are reading into that a bit much.

In no way does this deter personal seeking, far from it! Each one must feed himself. But Jesus set up the Divine Example, if you will: Jesus, Apostles, Laity.

This example, even if we take it as hierarchical, only shows that Jesus first feeds the Apostles and then the laity. He takes care of his closest followers first and the rest he takes care of after them.

Well, they are guaranteed against error. That is, they are maybe imperfectly expressed, yet they are not erroneous. In other words, they lead us in the correct direction in which to go deeper. It is not a chaotic free-for-all. Basics can be known wth clarity and precision.

We'll have to agree to disagree here

We actually agree here. Rather than imperfect, I should have said: incomplete.



You do not make the mistake some do in thinking infallible is impeccable. You are correct here.

 

[Dark Radiance]

God is transcendent and immanent. He indwells the believer by the Spirit. We have the Holy Spirit and the Word and relationship with Christ. Outward symbols do not convey, but illustrate, spiritual reality. We do not need Mass, sacrament of infant baptism, last rites, etc. We need the Spirit of the Living God, His Word, and a vital connection to Christ. Evangelicals know God intimately and do not find Him transcendent because we do not attend Catholic rote rituals week in a week out. We value the ordinances of the Lord's Supper (memorial) and believer's baptism (symbolic), but our joy comes from the immediate presence of God and His self-revelation in the Word. Prayer and worship is the key, not outward rituals that many people observe and yet remain far from knowing God. Knowing 'about' God also falls short.

I think you grossly misunderstand the purpose of ritual within the Catholic tradition. Rituals are one of the few ways in which finite creatures may approach an infinite being. Otherwise approaching God would always be a crap-shoot.

 

[chrysostom]

I'm not saying Jesus' promised changed - I'm just disagreeing with your interpretation of it.

interpretation is all we have
unless
Jesus put someone in charge to give us some direction

 

[Sheila B]

God is transcendent and immanent. He indwells the believer by the Spirit. We have the Holy Spirit and the Word and relationship with Christ. Outward symbols do not convey, but illustrate, spiritual reality.

Is that God's revelation to the Hebrews on Mt. Siani: that the Tent and ordinances and statutes did not convey holiness to them?

Rather, the very holiness of the Priestly garments, the Bread of the Face, and every aspect of Priest and Temple conveyed holiness!

Jesus confirms this when He askes: Does the altar make the gift holy, or is it the gift that makes the altar holy?
Jesus is clearly describing two material objects as the possible transmitters of holiness- to the human person!

A misreading of scripture leads to these errors on Jesus' intent.

We do not need Mass, sacrament of infant baptism, last rites, etc. We need the Spirit of the Living God, His Word, and a vital connection to Christ. Evangelicals know God intimately and do not find Him transcendent because we do not attend Catholic rote rituals week in a week out. We value the ordinances of the Lord's Supper (memorial) and believer's baptism (symbolic), but our joy comes from the immediate presence of God and His self-revelation in the Word.

The Reformers took away all sacramentalism because why? It requires the sacrificing priesthood at the core of it!

It left us with the Bible alone. A very, very, sad state of affairs. Jesus planned for us to have the whole of it:

He wants to touch us just as He did 2000 years ago. he touched the leper and he was cured. We have a disease that needs the very touch of Jesus to cure us. The actual physical touch of Jesus' Body to our actual physical body. This takes place when we consume the Eucharist.

Prayer and worship is the key, not outward rituals that many people observe and yet remain far from knowing God. Knowing 'about' God also falls short.

You have left so much Scripture behind in order to come to this conclusion. You have left Jesus' plan behind in favor of what men devised in the 1500's.

To know the Spouse is to experience His Divine Touch.

 

[godrulz]

I think you grossly misunderstand the purpose of ritual within the Catholic tradition. Rituals are one of the few ways in which finite creatures may approach an infinite being. Otherwise approaching God would always be a crap-shoot.

Jesus prayed directly to the Father, even with His eyes open.

Because of Him, we can do the same, apart from rote ritual. It is about relationship, not externals.

Heb. 4:14-16 It would be sheer eisegesis to read Catholic trappings back into a simple verse like this (cf. Lord's prayer; Phil. 4:4-7, etc.).

Sheila: this is my body/blood is a metaphor, not Mass!?
OT shadows/types are fulfilled in the reality of Christ/presence of Spirit; NT is priesthood of believers; too many Catholic things come from pagan influence, including a hierarchical priesthood/clergy-laity separation.

 

[Sheila B]

Sheila: this is my body/blood is a metaphor, not Mass!?

I was raised Baptist and fell away and when I turned my life over to Christ was Protestant for 14 years. If Jesus Himself had not enlightened my understanding as to the reality of Mass, I never could have embraced the Church. But, He did, and I will happily die a faithful daughter of Holy Mother church.

Some people do come to the Church through study, I was not one of them. Yet, my heavy study of Scripture made me see how fully and completely the Catholic teaching is seamless with Scripture, whereas other schools of thought have huge gaps and difficulties. The more I studied my newfaith the more I rejoiced in the Lord's great seamless plan of salvation, and still do!

OT shadows/types are fulfilled in the reality of Christ/presence of Spirit;

Herein lies the difference: as Protestants, we necessarily had to deny the body because sacramentalism is a touching of the material being, not spirit-alone.
John Calvin removed the Mass and introduced the sermon alone.
He took the priesthood from us.
The apostles were very sacramental: Baptism now saves you! Do you think the circumcison that saved the Hebrew was not sacramental? It certainly was not only spiritual!

NT is priesthood of believers; too many Catholic things come from pagan influence, including a hierarchical priesthood/clergy-laity separation.

Actually, you are the one who denies the reality, not me. But, I do not blame you or anyone else. If Jesus does not give you the faith, you will not have it. But,an honest study of history willshow Jesus has not abandoned the first Church, the Apostolic one. And it will show a firm Priesthood both East and West, all the way back to the Apostles.

The insistance on pagan influences is apostolic (I become all things to all men so as to save some of them), and is God's plan. The same thing is said of Judaism, that it has pagan roots. Well, who are these pagans? Humanity!
He made religion for the lost (pagans) not for the righteous. It is just such a universal religion that embraces all of mankind in all languages and on all continents that is Jesus'plan. He loves the pagans, He saves them (myself included!). So, thou dost protest too much.