toldailytopic: If you are saved, yet you stumble (and sin) are you still saved?
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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Do you love God as much as he loves all of us? Yes or no.
SaulToPaul 2
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No, he doesn't.
John 14
15: If ye love me, keep my commandments.
23: Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
So much for the "reciprocal love relationship", rulz' standard cliche.
There is no contradiction or change in my view. You just can't keep up because you can't see beyond your own biased errors. You reject a straw man of my view, but cannot or will not see this.
No, I am not God with all of His perfections. This is why I fall short of His glory and need a sinless Savior to save and keep me.
Reciprocal love relationship refers to genuine love and relationship between perfect Creator and imperfect creature. It does not imply equality of love, perfections, etc. We love because He first loved us (Rom. 5:8).
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Good answer, wolf. Do you have sins that he can sweep under the rug?
They why don't you ever explain yourself in simple terms?
God set the standard for loving him. Keep his commandments. How is that going for you?
I do love Jesus and I do not purposefully disobey His moral commandments based on God's character. I do not worship false idols, I do not adulterate, I do not murder, etc. (yes, I do lust, I do hate, etc.). I do not steal, lie, hate parents, etc. without the conviction of the Word/Spirit if I do. I yield to Him and do not obey out of self-righteousness. Jesus was not telling us post-cross to obey the civil and ceremonianl laws that were exclusive to theocratic Israel.
Jesus gives a command with the intention that His disciples will obey. We can debate which commands He meant, but we cannot live a life of disobedience to Him, His Word, God's unchanging moral law and claim to be following Paul as he followed Jesus.
Your antinominian views are just as bad as legalistic ones...which brings us back to loving obedience post-conversion because we are saved, not in order to get saved (Rom. 7).
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
John 14
23: Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24: He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Why don't you keep his sayings if you love him?
Where did this happen? And when did it happen? I am not saying he didn't, where and when did the instruction go to the gentiles?
The devil wants us to disobey Jesus. The Father, Jesus, Paul, Bible wants us to love and obey Jesus, parents, pagan governments, etc.
Those who do not know basic biblical principles should not be whining for proof texts for their pet preconceived ideas. Some things are self-evident or defensible in principle even if a verse does not articulate it the way you want it to. The burden of proof is on you guys for denying what hundreds of millions of Christians through the centuries have no problem seeing in Scripture. Trying to make MAD (error) fit is why you must resort to mental gymnastics around these plain issues.
Those who do not know basic biblical principles should not be whining for proof texts for their pet preconceived ideas. Some things are self-evident or defensible in principle even if a verse does not articulate it the way you want it to. The burden of proof is on you guys for denying what hundreds of millions of Christians through the centuries have no problem seeing in Scripture. Trying to make MAD (error) fit is why you must resort to mental gymnastics around these plain issues.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Then why do you disobey? Are you a child of the devil?
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
If these things are so plain, you should have no problem providing biblical support.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Not surprised the robot bypassed this one.
If you are talking about sinless perfectionism, then I disobey. If you are talking about Pauline Christianity, then I am no different than any other believer that Paul exhorts, instructs, rebukes, commands, etc.
Just because my children disobey me does not mean they are spawn of Satan. Heb. 12 talks about believers who disobey and are disciplined. They are still children of God, not children of Satan.
Your reasoning is bizarre and barely worth responding to. You are grinding an axe because of your wrong preconceptions. You are not refuting my balanced, biblical views.
Make a point or shut up. You are playing games.
Click on the biblical links in my posts.
As to not responding to every single post of Nick's, I am starting to be like Clete and not suffer fools gladly.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
You are angry because you know that you do not keep Jesus' commandments, and you do not love him.
Read how Jesus dealt with Peter after his denial. Do you love me, etc. etc.?
The Holy Spirit is the one who convicts and convinces people, not STP and Nick and Butterfly (unholy trinity?). The Word and Spirit are not guilting me with vague accusations. His conviction is personal and specific. The accuser of the brethren, Satan and you guys, try to guilt others who don't share your myopic views. By judging others, you fail to see the need for grace in your own life. Your perfectionist views might ease your conscience, but they leave us in the same boat.
The disciples did not obey and love Jesus perfectly. This does not mean that they were to ignore His imperatives and exhortations. Paul also gave imperatives and exhortations that were followed imperfectly by the Church. He lovingly dealt with people to edify, rebuke, exhort, etc.
All you are doing is falsely accusing those who take the Word seriously. Why are you not as blatantly arguing for the logical consequence of your view (rank disobedience, rank sin, grace as a license to sin, rebellion, etc.)?!
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