toldailytopic: If you are saved, yet you stumble (and sin) are you still saved?

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sdgareth

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All People Are Sinners
9*Well then, should we conclude that we Jews are better than others? No, not at all, for we have already shown that all people, whether Jews or Gentiles, are under the power of sin. 10*As the Scriptures say,
“No one is righteous—
not even one.
11* No one is truly wise;
no one is seeking God.
12* All have turned away;
all have become useless.
No one does good,
not a single one.”
13* “Their talk is foul, like the stench from an open grave.
Their tongues are filled with lies.”
“Snake venom drips from their lips.”
14* “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
15* “They rush to commit murder.
16* Destruction and misery always follow them.
17* They don’t know where to find peace.”
18* “They have no fear of God at all.”
Tyndale House Publishers. (2004). Holy Bible : New Living Translation. (2nd ed.) (Ro 3:9–18). Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House Publishers.

22*We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.
23*For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious
Tyndale House Publishers. (2004). Holy Bible : New Living Translation. (2nd ed.) (Ro 3:22–23). Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House Publishers.

Repentance is a willingness to change from one’s self–centered existence to a life informed and directed by God. It calls for a turning from the priority and bondage of the self. Basically it is a new attitude, a new worldview, a new master. Repentance is God’s will for every fallen child of Adam, made in His image.
 

godrulz

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So is a baby, just born and has not done anything but take his first breath of air, a sinner?

The traditional Christian view is Augustinian 'original sin'. Sin is moral, volitional, not genetic, substance, physical, metaphysical/being. I believe the classical view is flawed, but I do believe that we all become sinners and all need a sinless Savior.

So, I will agree with the atheist on this one point, but disagree on a bigger issue relating to theism and the gospel.
 

godrulz

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Knight's trying to start a fight, so should I take flight? Nah.

Unbelief is a unique sin, the antithesis of saving faith. Only godless unbelief persisted in unto death will lead to being unsaved (an unbeliever is a condemned sinner; an apostate, someone who falls away from truth, is also an unbeliever, a former believer; I Jn. 5:11-13 Life is in the Son, not apart from Him).

The Corinthian SAINTS had sin issues (I Cor. 5, etc.). Heb. 12 shows God disciplining believers who sin. Other passages rebuke, exhort, condemn sinning believers without denying grace in their life (e.g. I Thess 4:1-10).

I Cor. 6:9-11 contains things that believers do. There is a difference between a Christian who has isolated lapses into sin that are repented of with renewed obedience, and a godless unbeliever who habitually sins without Christ in their life and without conscience to repent and come to Jesus as Lord and Savior.

Sinless perfection views (Christians cannot sin vs should not/will not) are not a solution nor is hyper-Arminianism (one sin means you need to get saved over and over at the altar, etc.).

Butterfly neg rep: you are a pathetic pile of trash.

Does this respond to the biblical/logical arguments in the post or merely show that BF is immature and unable to defend his own views or counter mine (sincerely held with conviction to the best of my ability under God)?
 

Nick M

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He has already lost. Col 2:15

I know. I said "if godrulz is right".

Satan, that old serpert which is the devil, hates God like some of the atheists here, and shakes his fist at him all the time. If every body went to hell, satan would be happy.

Was Jesus the Word made flesh, yet sinless?

When you ask a question, it makes me question whether you have ever read the Bible, instead of just commentaries by it.

I said 'yes', dopey. I say 'no' to OSAS, but that was not the question. Unbelief/apostasy is a unique sin. Get over it.

it is a reciprocal love relationship, not an unconditional zapping. Past sins can be dealt with, but this does not preclude the possibility of heinous future sins, including blasphemy, that cannot be swept under the carpet by a holy God

You 100% believe in a performance based salvation. You are absolutely in darkness, and not in the light. You have no idea what sin, death, and salvation are. And frankly, I don't think you care.
 
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godrulz

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Butterfly neg rep: you are a pathetic pile of trash.

Does this respond to the biblical/logical arguments in the post or merely show that BF is immature and unable to defend his own views or counter mine (sincerely held with conviction to the best of my ability under God)?

Nick M neg rep. You are welcome for giving you BF's sentence for a neg rep. I would not expect you to be original nor respond to arguments intelligently.
 

Non-Excluvistic

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toldailytopic: If you are saved, yet you stumble (and sin) are you still saved?






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I guess i don't understand the whole saved thing. I have never witnessed anyone go without sinning.

To me, saved is not realistic because people always will continue to stumble and sin.

Honestly, growing up Christian I never saw the difference in the actions of Christians vs other faiths or non-believers; nothing more than some people are good and some people are bad. Seemed that as a Christian we were taught that we are saved and have something better that puts us in a closer relationship with God than other faiths and non-believers; however, I saw no difference in the actions of people. Good people were still good, and bad people were still bad, whether they were Christian or not.

Can someone explain the differences or characteristics one should notice in a saved person that no other faith or non-believer can also show or do?
 

godrulz

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Salvation is by grace through faith in the person and work of Christ. It is not based on our works or supposed goodness.

Islam is a religion of works, a Master-slave relationship with hopes to please and appease Allah. It is not based on grace, love, the death/resurrection of Christ.

Motive is also important. Two religious people may do the same outward things, but one has a dependence on God and desire to honor Him, while the other is merely religious, self-righteous, man-pleasing.

Faith vs unbelief determines destiny (heaven vs hell). Works determines degree of rewards (for the unbeliever, degree of sins determines degrees of punishment).

What type of Christian background did you have? Do you really understand Islam and its inferiority to biblical Christianity?
 

Ktoyou

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Are you saying you can live in Christ but have to follow the Law, also?

No, if I am dead to the Law and alive in Christ, what do you think I mean? I am saying I live for Christ, not the Law. However, this does not mean I live against all laws, just those laws that applied to specifically to Israel.
 

Memento Mori

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No, if I am dead to the Law and alive in Christ, what do you think I mean? I am saying I live for Christ, not the Law. However, this does not mean I live against all laws, just those laws that applied to specifically to Israel.

So only part of the Law applies to you?
 

Ktoyou

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Is your third "laws" meant to be those not given by God, i.e., government laws?

Yes, in part, but you do not understand what I mean by being 'in Christ'. One in Christ is guided by Grace, not the Law. The Law teaches the meaning of sin and cannot be obeyed. This is why we need God, for only God can save us, no OT laws can save, yet some laws, the Ten Commandments, love God above all and love your brother as yourself is what Jesus taught. One cannot be in Christ and disobey His laws.
 

Memento Mori

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Yes, in part, but you do not understand what I mean by being 'in Christ'. One in Christ is guided by Grace, not the Law. The Law teaches the meaning of sin and cannot be obeyed. This is why we need God, for only God can save us, no OT laws can save, yet some laws, the Ten Commandments, love God above all and love your brother as yourself is what Jesus taught. One cannot be in Christ and disobey His laws.

How can you obey Christ's Laws and Christ's Grace? The parts I bolded don't exactly flow from my view. Plus the Ten Commandments are part of the Law.
 

Ktoyou

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How can you obey Christ's Laws and Christ's Grace? The parts I bolded don't exactly flow from my view. Plus the Ten Commandments are part of the Law.

I am speaking of the laws of Israel and yes, the Ten Commandments are part of the Law, yet Jesus said what I previously posted. If you read the Bible, you will see that this is just part of the Law.
 

bybee

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I've been thinking about this question quite a bit. I believe that the very purpose of salvation is so that when we stumble,and we do stumble, we can with full confidence, pick ourselves up and know that all is not lost, we are still in the light.
I still am not convinced that a person who commits heinous acts could have been truly saved in the first place. peace, bybee
 

Non-Excluvistic

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Salvation is by grace through faith in the person and work of Christ. It is not based on our works or supposed goodness.

In Islam salvation is based on grace too. No one can every do enough goodness to earn themselves righteous enough before God. We believe God is the most merciful and will judge the intent of a mans heart.

Islam is a religion of works, a Master-slave relationship with hopes to please and appease Allah.

We do strive to do good deeds because it is an obligation upon mankind to take care of one another. If you want to serve God, then you serve your fellow man--Muhammad (pbuh)

You have an obligation to do your best to not let another man starve or go without clothes on his back. This isn't done as some offering or payment to God for salvation. That is not something Islam teaches.

It is not based on grace, love, the death/resurrection of Christ.

Of course not. We don't believe in that. This has nothing to do with the Question I asked you: IF it is true that a saved person should be like a changed creature and sin no more, what differences should I notice in these saves people that I won't in a person of another faith or a non-believer?

You are saying this as if you have absolute proof that you have something that is above what all other faiths have. What is a sign of this--without Christian theology or quoting verses, you should be able to give an example or describe something a Christian does or the way he lives after being saved, that a member of another faith or non-believer can't do. What is the difference--without verse quoting, and without theology faith based assumption, which has yet to be seen or verified until we die.

Motive is also important. Two religious people may do the same outward things, but one has a dependence on God and desire to honor Him, while the other is merely religious, self-righteous, man-pleasing.

As a Muslim I don't practice being self-righteous, nor do I practice man pleasing. That is something that a member of any religion can become guilty of--you included.

Faith vs unbelief determines destiny (heaven vs hell). Works determines degree of rewards (for the unbeliever, degree of sins determines degrees of punishment).

Works determines no rewards for a Muslim (I assume you are referring to Muslims as unbelievers). Works are obligations for all mankind to do. It is our responsibility while here to take care of one another. Does you no good to believe in God and say you have faith but do not help others and do good deeds. Faith without works is spiritual death.

What type of Christian background did you have?

I was raised in a Baptist Church.

Do you really understand Islam and its inferiority to biblical Christianity?

Well, first off, i am not arrogant enough to call other religions inferior--I leave those types of judgments up to the self-righteous, and the Holier than thou type people. I am the judged and not the judger, and the world would be a better place if more people realized that.

Certain religions may not be for me, or make me feel secure enough, I still find some truth in them, and find their teachings useful in everyday life.

I am definitely into learning of other faiths to see what I can find useful and what teachings mirror my religion's teachings, and I find many of other religions saying the same, just in different ways. I believe there are different sages for different temperaments. I attend different religions services at times--not exactly to worship, but to learn of what it is they believe, and to talk with them about it. Doing none of that hurts my Muslims beliefs or relationship with God. I am always searching for new truths I have not learned, because I know it is impossible for one religion to contain the only truths.

We are all different culturally and it seems to me that these sages were directed by God for various people and their personalities, to reveal different paths to the Ultimate Reality we call God or whatever name we call it by culture. One ocean many rivers!


With that being said Can you answer my initial question: IF it is true that a saved person should be like a changed creature and sin no more, what differences should I notice in these saves people that I won't in a person of another faith or a non-believer?

You are saying this as if you have absolute proof that you have something that is above what all other faiths have. What is a sign of this--without Christian theology or quoting verses, you should be able to give an example or describe something a Christian does or the way he lives after being saved, that a member of another faith or non-believer can't do. What is the difference--without verse quoting, and without theology faith based assumption, which has yet to be seen or verified until we die.
 

Nick M

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:baby: :allsmile:

Dry your eyes.

Salvation is by grace through faith in the person and work of Christ. It is not based on our works or supposed goodness.

So then you changed your mind from just a few posts ago?

Past sins can be dealt with, but this does not preclude the possibility of heinous future sins, including blasphemy, that cannot be swept under the carpet by a holy God.


So, what sort of sin will God not nail to the cross if you are in good standing relationship wise with him? Just curious.

And once again, this proves you do not believe he died for your sin. You think he swept it under the rug. That is how you see it. Sweeping under the rug is not justice. Justice was served on the cross 2000 years ago, and you want no part of it.
 
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