toldailytopic: Eternal torment, Annihilationism or Universalism, which do you believe

[Timotheos]

Theology Online Rule 5

5. Thou SHALL NOT hijack threads or be a "thread pest" (Hijacking a thread means intentionally changing the subject of a thread to discredit the thread's purpose. And being a "thread pest" means you pop into random threads just to make a mocking comment with no other purpose than to marginalize the discussion). If you are not interested in the topic of a thread, you might just want to stay out of it.



Theology Onlilne Rule 7

7. Thou SHALL NOT troll our forums. If you are here to make outlandish, crazy statements merely to get a rise out of the membership and cause trouble, please save yourself the time and leave.



Other TOL rules:
Please do not stalk another TOL member. If you do not agree with a TOL member, do not follow that member around the TOL forum engaging them in every thread (even unrelated to the disagreement). If we determine you are a forum stalker we will ban you.

Please do not marginalize TOL threads or TOL members, the topics and threads that interest some TOL members might not interest you. Just ignore threads and TOL members that do not interest you.

 

[meshak]

Eternal punishment is punishment from which there is no reprieve. Once you're gone, you're gone, i.e. annihilation.

this is contextual.

It seems that many people want to see non-believers tortured forever in fire.

God is not sadistic God.

 

[Timotheos]

this is contextual.

It seems that many people want to see non-believers tortured forever in fire.

God is not sadistic God.

I agree, and Christians should not be sadistic either.



Here is the next scripture passage in a long line of passages proving that those who reject God are destroyed instead of being tortured alive forever in Hell.
Jude 10
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.

It's very clearly stated "by these things they are destroyed". If the foul doctrine of eternal torturism were true, this passage would have said "by these things they are tortured alive forever in hell". But of course, it doesn't say that.

 

[Vaquero45]

Theology Online Rule 5

5. Thou SHALL NOT hijack threads or be a "thread pest" (Hijacking a thread means intentionally changing the subject of a thread to discredit the thread's purpose. And being a "thread pest" means you pop into random threads just to make a mocking comment with no other purpose than to marginalize the discussion). If you are not interested in the topic of a thread, you might just want to stay out of it.



Theology Onlilne Rule 7

7. Thou SHALL NOT troll our forums. If you are here to make outlandish, crazy statements merely to get a rise out of the membership and cause trouble, please save yourself the time and leave.



Other TOL rules:
Please do not stalk another TOL member. If you do not agree with a TOL member, do not follow that member around the TOL forum engaging them in every thread (even unrelated to the disagreement). If we determine you are a forum stalker we will ban you.

Please do not marginalize TOL threads or TOL members, the topics and threads that interest some TOL members might not interest you. Just ignore threads and TOL members that do not interest you.

I know first hand the mods don't care about the rules you quoted, unfortunately. It would be nice but no.

 

[meshak]

I agree, and Christians should not be sadistic either.



Here is the next scripture passage in a long line of passages proving that those who reject God are destroyed instead of being tortured alive forever in Hell.
Jude 10
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.

It's very clearly stated "by these things they are destroyed". If the foul doctrine of eternal torturism were true, this passage would have said "by these things they are tortured alive forever in hell". But of course, it doesn't say that.

Yes, evil will be destroyed. So are people who dont love peace, and engaging in war.

 

[Timotheos]

Yes, evil will be destroyed. So are people who dont love peace, and engaging in war.

I agree,

Here is more scripture supporting Conditional Immortality, from the Old Testament. Up to this point I have been making the case from the New:
Ezekiel 18:4 The soul who sins will die.

The proof is throughout the bible. After the first sin, God told them that the promised consequence was death. God didn't tell them that they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever. Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.

If eternal torture in hell is the consequence for sin, it is also glaringly absent from any of Moses's writing. God must have "forgotten" to tell Moses about eternal torture in Hell. Or God did tell Moses about the agonizing torture and Moses decided to keep it a secret. Neither of these things seems plausible, yet one of them must have happened if the Hell Supporters are correct.

 

[chrysostom]

I approve this message

 

[Totton Linnet]

I agree,

Here is more scripture supporting Conditional Immortality, from the Old Testament. Up to this point I have been making the case from the New:
Ezekiel 18:4 The soul who sins will die.

The proof is throughout the bible. After the first sin, God told them that the promised consequence was death. God didn't tell them that they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever. Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.

If eternal torture in hell is the consequence for sin, it is also glaringly absent from any of Moses's writing. God must have "forgotten" to tell Moses about eternal torture in Hell. Or God did tell Moses about the agonizing torture and Moses decided to keep it a secret. Neither of these things seems plausible, yet one of them must have happened if the Hell Supporters are correct.

When Satan said "you will not surly die" he said it to strengthen Adam's hand to sin....the denial of punishment is the strength of sin. That is what you do, you say to the murderer "go in peace, it will be well with you, you will never be punished."

That makes you equally guilty with the murderer. Death is the abode of the wicked...it is not soul sleep.

 

[bybee]

I agree,

Here is more scripture supporting Conditional Immortality, from the Old Testament. Up to this point I have been making the case from the New:
Ezekiel 18:4 The soul who sins will die.

The proof is throughout the bible. After the first sin, God told them that the promised consequence was death. God didn't tell them that they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever. Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.

If eternal torture in hell is the consequence for sin, it is also glaringly absent from any of Moses's writing. God must have "forgotten" to tell Moses about eternal torture in Hell. Or God did tell Moses about the agonizing torture and Moses decided to keep it a secret. Neither of these things seems plausible, yet one of them must have happened if the Hell Supporters are correct.

The laws of physics were created by God.
Fire consumes.

 

[Totton Linnet]

The fire of God burns but it does not consume...this God showed to Moses who was to be the custodian of the law.

Wicked men deserve eternal punishment, they have spent their lives consumed with greed and lust for blood. Their souls are fit only to be salted with fire. If that is horrific then let the child raper stop raping children...did you know this is a mega vice organisation? kidnapping little children as they play and selling them to be used for sex?

Let the murderer stop murdering. Let the wicked dictator stop his chemical attacks.

Such souls deserve to be tormented. They are pictured in the story of Lazarus and Dives.

You and I see a human being outwardly they are our fellows, outwardly they are the same as us......but God sees what they are inwardly, He solemnly warns them.

You say but we are all sinners....yes THAT is your mistake, you think too little of sin, you think too little of salvation in consequence...you do not understand the mercy with which God has had mercy on you.

You think too little of the cross.

 

[Timotheos]

When Satan said "you will not surly die" he said it to strengthen Adam's hand to sin....the denial of punishment is the strength of sin. That is what you do, you say to the murderer "go in peace, it will be well with you, you will never be punished."

That makes you equally guilty with the murderer. Death is the abode of the wicked...it is not soul sleep.

No, I do not deny the punishment. I simply disagree with you on what the punishment consists of. How is being burnt to ash NOT a punishment? If you are saying that a sinner lives forever in Hell being tortured, aren't you agreeing with Satan who said "You will not surely die"? I am disagreeing with Satan, and agreeing with God who said that the result of sin is death. I am certainly not saying to the murderer "Go in peace, it will be will with you". In fact, I am saying the opposite of that. The wages of sin is death. Murder is certainly a sin, and the punishment for sin is death.

You should think this through again.
May God bless you.

 

[meshak]

Originally Posted by Totton Linnet View Post
When Satan said "you will not surly die" he said it to strengthen Adam's hand to sin....the denial of punishment is the strength of sin. That is what you do, you say to the murderer "go in peace, it will be well with you, you will never be punished."

That makes you equally guilty with the murderer. Death is the abode of the wicked...it is not soul sleep.

those Christians preach never ending torture also approve of killing their enemy at war too.

and they believe they are loving Christians.

blessings.

 

[Totton Linnet]

those Christians preach never ending torture also approve of killing their enemy at war too.

and they believe they are loving Christians.

blessings.

Do you deny that the soldier is ordained by God?

If you do evil then beware for he beareth not the sword in vain...if you resist the power you resist God.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Christ taught that the place of eternal punishment was created by God for the devil and his angels....but at the judgement we see clearly people are told to depart to that place.

 

[Timotheos]

Christ taught that the place of eternal punishment was created by God for the devil and his angels....but at the judgement we see clearly people are told to depart to that place.

And is it your belief that the eternal punishment is torture?

What about all of the scripture that says that the eternal punishment is death?

 

[Totton Linnet]

And is it your belief that the eternal punishment is torture?

What about all of the scripture that says that the eternal punishment is death?

How can death as you describe it be eternal punishment? if the punishment is only temporary then so is the gift of eternal life only temporary for it is spoken in the same breath.

 

[Timotheos]

How can death as you describe it be eternal punishment? if the punishment is only temporary then so is the gift of eternal life only temporary for it is spoken in the same breath.

It is eternal punishment because they die and are dead forever. The punishment never ends, death is the eternal punishment.
How is death temporary for those who do not have eternal life? What makes you think that perishing and never being alive again is only temporary?

What about all of the scriptures that say that death is the punishment for sin?

 

[Totton Linnet]

It is eternal punishment because they die and are dead forever. The punishment never ends, death is the eternal punishment.
How is death temporary for those who do not have eternal life? What makes you think that perishing and never being alive again is only temporary?

What about all of the scriptures that say that death is the punishment for sin?

Because the life we have in our bodies is not the life we recieve from Christ. The death we experience also is not the death which is passed upon the guilty. We are the bible says dead while we live outside of Christ, in fact man is born dead and must be made to live..

Death is a state of being, it governs the world.

 

[Totton Linnet]

It is eternal punishment because they die and are dead forever. The punishment never ends, death is the eternal punishment.
How is death temporary for those who do not have eternal life? What makes you think that perishing and never being alive again is only temporary?

What about all of the scriptures that say that death is the punishment for sin?

That is weasel

The punishment is not eternal if it has an end.....the wicked are not punished for what they do but for what they are, why shouldn't they be? why should the wicked not be punished for being evil?

 

[Timotheos]

Because the life we have in our bodies is not the life we recieve from Christ. The death we experience also is not the death which is passed upon the guilty. We are the bible says dead while we live outside of Christ, in fact man is born dead and must be made to live..

Death is a state of being, it governs the world.

Why do you think that the life we have is not the life we receive from Jesus Christ?

Why do you think that man is born dead? Where I come from babies are born alive. If they were dead, they wouldn't grow up to be men.

I agree that death is a state of being. It is specifically the state of being dead. It is not the state of being alive. Do you think that death means eternal life?

The verdict of death that comes upon the guilty happens at the last judgment. That is when those who have rejected Christ perish and never live again.