toldailytopic: Eternal torment, Annihilationism or Universalism, which do you believe

[Vaquero45]

:doh:

The "life" in "eternal life" is not simply existence. So "eternal death" would not require "eternal life."

No. Not at all. That is a huge unfounded logical leap. "Eternal death" is a mess, you mean eternal suffering or torment or whatever. "Eternal death" means the same as "death". It's like "blue" or "really blue".
Yes, the "eternal life" given to the saved has a lot of baggage attached, and it is not simply existence. It's all good baggage and it's awesome. But "eternal life" still means "eternal life", and "death" is still the opposite. The opposite of eternal life is shown for the lost in all the passages that talk about "death" "destruction" "dying as beasts" "turning to ashes" "vanishing as smoke"... which you have not touched once in this conversation. I want to be right LH, I want you to blow me out of the water if I am wrong. Hit on those verses and show me where I missed. How do those verses not mean what they seem to say?

If that's what the Bible says then maybe someone will be able to provide the Scripture?

I have one for my side:

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
-1 Peter 3:18-19

So, His flesh was dead but His Spirit remained, separated from the Father, while He preached to the spirits in prison.

Then there is this:

Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.
-Acts 2:30-31

And also this:

Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”


​

(Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)
-Ephesians 4:8-10



Because Christ was resurrected it makes more sense to believe those in Hell will also one day be resurrected than to believe they will be annihilated.

The simple truth is I don't compare the details of how Jesus died to how the lost died. If I need to I'll go back and look at it. I liked the look of Timotheos'eses post and quoted it.

 

[Aimiel]

It simply doesn't make any sense to resurrect the dead who are to be judged if they are merely to be put to death again. Why not just leave them dead? The Holy Bible says that the wages of sin is death, yes, but after this: JUDGMENT.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

The judgment would not be necessary for them if their sentence was another death. Jesus said that the Lake of Fire (which torments judged souls for ever and ever) is the 'second death' but He didn't say they would die a second time. The Scripture above says that it is appointed unto men ONCE to die. If you take what Jesus said about the Lake of Fire literally, then men being appointed to die twice should be in Scripture. It isn't. It is merely CALLED the 'second death.'

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Both of these (the 'beast' and the false prophet) are men. They show us exactly who will be tormented day and night for ever and ever: humans who are judged. That is their judgment. It is also the judgment of all sinners who've rejected God. The Bible is very clear, when you believe all Scriptures put together.

 

[Lighthouse]

No. Not at all. That is a huge unfounded logical leap. "Eternal death" is a mess, you mean eternal suffering or torment or whatever. "Eternal death" means the same as "death". It's like "blue" or "really blue".

No. No it isn't.

Death=separation from God. This is the fate suffered by our Lord, Jesus Christ. That is the fate that awaits those who do not believe, because they have not believed. They are eternally separated from God.

Yes, the "eternal life" given to the saved has a lot of baggage attached, and it is not simply existence. It's all good baggage and it's awesome. But "eternal life" still means "eternal life", and "death" is still the opposite. The opposite of eternal life is shown for the lost in all the passages that talk about "death" "destruction" "dying as beasts" "turning to ashes" "vanishing as smoke"... which you have not touched once in this conversation. I want to be right LH, I want you to blow me out of the water if I am wrong. Hit on those verses and show me where I missed. How do those verses not mean what they seem to say?

1. What are the verses again?
2. Have you prayed about this?

The simple truth is I don't compare the details of how Jesus died to how the lost died. If I need to I'll go back and look at it. I liked the look of Timotheos'eses post and quoted it.

Then maybe you should compare it with the word of God, and go to Him in prayer instead of just adopting things that tickle your ears.

 

[Timotheos]

:doh:

Why are you having trouble understanding this?

The "life" in "eternal life" is not simply existence. So "eternal death" would not require "eternal life."

Eternal torment requires that the person being tormented be alive forever to experience the torment. We've established that those who do not have eternal life do not have eternal life. Eternal death does not require eternal life, but eternal torment requires eternal life. Why are you having trouble understanding this?

If that's what the Bible says then maybe someone will be able to provide the Scripture?

Look over my posts, they have many scriptures supporting us.

I have one for my side:

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
-1 Peter 3:18-19

So, His flesh was dead but His Spirit remained, separated from the Father, while He preached to the spirits in prison.

This passage does not help your side, because it does not say that the spirits in prison were being tormented, it doesn't say the torment lasts forever, it doesn't say who the spirits are, it just isn't support for your doctrine.

Then there is this:

Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.
-Acts 2:30-31

This does not support the view that the wicked go to Hell when they doe where they are tormented alive forever. It simply does not say that.

And also this:

Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”


​

(Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)
-Ephesians 4:8-10

This passage doesn't support your view that the wicked go to Hell when they die where they are tormented alive forever. The passage just does not say that.

Because Christ was resurrected it makes more sense to believe those in Hell will also one day be resurrected than to believe they will be annihilated.

You do not understand what the Doctrine of Annihilationism is teaching. We believe that the dead will be resurrected, and then they will perish as a result of Christ's judgment. That is the day they will perish and will be no more. That's the second death, dying a second time after the resurrection.

You seem to be making a special effort to NOT understand what we are saying, just so that you can disagree with it. If you understood Conditional Immortality, you would agree with it.

 

[resurrected]

who is "we"?

 

[Timotheos]

It simply doesn't make any sense to resurrect the dead who are to be judged if they are merely to be put to death again. Why not just leave them dead?

Because if they were just left dead, they would not experience Judgment. It is unjust to condemn someone to eternal death with no judgment. God doesn't do this, because God is just. So God resurrects the dead, judges them, and THEN sentences them. They die the second death as a result of the judgement.

Anyway, if you were God, you would be able to "just leave them dead". The Bible says that God will resurrect them for judgment and then they will perish.
I don't think that God is required to "just leave them dead" because YOU think that makes more sense.

I don't know how many times I've had to respond to this same objection. It doesn't hold water, why do people keep using it?

 

[Timotheos]

who is "we"?

Proper English usage is "Who ARE we?" The verb should match the subject. If the subject is plural (We) the verb should also be plural (are, not is).

 

[resurrected]

ok, i get it

you're reluctant to identify your cult

 

[Timotheos]

ok, i get it

you're reluctant to identify your cult

No, that's fine. I'll identify my "cult". I am a Bible-Believing Christian.
What cult are you in? Who first said "Surely you will not die" as your group claims?

 

[Timotheos]

Here's a hint. Satan was the first to say "Surely you will not die". So if are checking to see if you are part of a Satanic Cult, ask yourself " do I believe that the penalty for sin is death as the Bible says or do I believe that everyone lives forever in heaven or hell as Satan teaches?

 

[oatmeal]

Annihilation, for sure.

There will be a second death for those who rejected God.

Revelation 20:14

Which in a sense, is very gracious.

God gives them what they wanted and believed in.

They did not believe in God, and thus did not want the things of God, who is the author of life.

So God does what they wanted. They get neither God, nor life.

oatmeal

 

[Timotheos]

who is "we"?

When I said "we have established that those who do not have eternal life do not have eternal life,"We" refers to all of us on this thread.
Unless you want to argue that those who do not have eternal life actually do have eternal life.

 

[resurrected]

When I said "we have established that those who do not have eternal life do not have eternal life,"We" refers to all of us on this thread.

i was responding to:

Look over my posts, they have many scriptures supporting us.

We believe that the dead will be resurrected, and then they will perish as a result of Christ's judgment.

You seem to be making a special effort to NOT understand what we are saying, just so that you can disagree with it.

 

[Aimiel]

Because if they were just left dead, they would not experience Judgment. It is unjust to condemn someone to eternal death with no judgment. God doesn't do this, because God is just. So God resurrects the dead, judges them, and THEN sentences them. They die the second death as a result of the judgement.

Anyway, if you were God, you would be able to "just leave them dead". The Bible says that God will resurrect them for judgment and then they will perish.
I don't think that God is required to "just leave them dead" because YOU think that makes more sense.

I don't know how many times I've had to respond to this same objection. It doesn't hold water, why do people keep using it?

Because it just doesn't make any sense, and God is wise to the nth degree. He just wouldn't do something so silly.

 

[chrysostom]

Because it just doesn't make any sense, and God is wise to the nth degree. He just wouldn't do something so silly.

what is so silly?

 

[resurrected]

the idea of God resurrecting someone after the first death just to say to them, "well, off to annihilation for you - you were an unrepentant sinner" and then poof - they're off into non-existence

what would be the point of telling them their judgement?

 

[resurrected]

rev 14:11 says there will be no rest

 

[resurrected]

rev 22:14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

"outside are the dogs"

not

"non-existent are the dogs"

 

[Aimiel]

what is so silly?

Foolish notions brought about by 'proof-texters' who don't read The Bible but rather use Scripture to twist God's Word into a pretzel-shaped nightmare... :duh:

 

[Aimiel]

When I said "we have established that those who do not have eternal life do not have eternal life,"We" refers to all of us on this thread. Unless you want to argue that those who do not have eternal life actually do have eternal life.

Eternal life is growth, learning, exploring the wonders of God's Love for eternity... those sent to be tormented in the Lake of Fire for eternity aren't alive... they are left to suffer completely alone in absolute darkness in the torment of flames that never go out with worms eating away at them for ever and ever. That is not life. That is the 'second death' of suffering for eternity described by many, many Scriptures. Denying it and trying to proof-text it away doesn't change it. It only shows one's reluctance to take God at His Word.