toldailytopic: Did God predestine and therefore orchestrate the Sandy Hook Elementary

[rainee]

Hello dear Presbyteers,
Yes I am only now seeing your post to me.
But - I think you may have been frustrated with me for some time on this thread?
It is ok if you have been and please forgive me for being frustrating if I have been for you..

Calvinist do unite and do pray at a time like this.
The purpose of prayer is NOT to override God's will.

I agree Calvinists do unite and pray like all believers, do I seem anti Calvinist? I'm not.

But I have prayed to change God's mind before and I am a Calvinist.

I did so because I didn't know if that is what He was waiting for and had planned for it to be that way.

I do know I have to accept God's will and I do trust and intellectually believe as well that His plan goes to something far better than anything I can imagine. (And all our tears are saved.)

He knows we have heartbreaks, pain and disappointments.

I will not say the Book of Job says anywhere in it that He said anything like, "Come devil, My servant and do evil for Me."

God and the devil's relationship and the devil's ability to do evil are not explained in Job.

In the NT the evil one is no friend to God, he is an enemy who does harm but has a strange relationship to God and the Son of God..
God (- through The Lord?) deals with him in the end. Right?

Job is victorious because God is good. But God's good came at the end - I believe the real message in Job is that a believer or Israel can feel struck down and abused and no humans will be kind or say the right things or understand the truth..But God understands. And knows how it looks and feels. We have to turn to Him, maybe wrestle with Him. Tell Him. Ask Him to comfort us because our hearts are breaking.. And that is the story of Job for me.

For you too?

...
Important point: Sometimes God afflicts
even His own people.

This occurs for one of a few different reasons.

a.) Sometimes it's to chastise us.
( "whom the Lord loves He reproves" Proverbs
3:12 NASB; cf Revelation 3:19, 1 Corinthians
11:32. )

b.) Sometimes it to bring us closer to Him.
Believers we're never closer to God than when
we're afflicted.

c.) Sometimes it's to glorify Him.
When we are under severe affliction (say, got
cancer or something), yet we refuse to abandon
God whom allows it, this represents a powerful
testimony to unbelievers !

Amen, I do agree my Brother that those listed above are ways He makes things work for the good.

But He can make those things work for the good even when He did not like what the evil one has done or is doing.

Either it is a spiritual war with spiritual warfare or it is not.

Should the Sovereignty of God be attacked every time there is warfare? That is why I spoke up.

Another Important Point:

None of us are so good, so obedient to God,
so free of sin, that we don't deserve any
afflictions we receive.

Even as the regenerate Elect, we continue
being sinners !

Our righteousness is Christ's righteousness
imputed to us.

Hmm. You are a man I guess. I don't think like that up there.
But it is probably good you wrote that for other men who are not Presbies so they can know.

God saves us from the eternal perdition we
deserve. And that not because we're so good,
but for the sake of His Son, Jesus Christ.

I am a woman who does not see it like that. I'm part of a Bride, remember? But it is true I came with a high price - much higher than i am worth..

Therefore -if we suffer in this life- we have no
cause to complain. Our eternal punishment
has been remitted. That we suffer here and
now in as sinners in this fallen world, is
merely temporary.

You have a good attitude, my friend.
As Job says, this life is short and full of woe.
I believe that.

The Most High uses our present affliction for
His glory and purposes.

You are a man of faith and I hope I haven't messed with you too much hug

 

[Desert Reign]

I believe you. You're right, I haven't been listening to anyone. I've
been praying for a while and no one listens to me either. Laoshi Presby
is a register plus and nothing more. I not sure I can be of any value
to TOL anyway. I'm more like being called away from this and
time for me to get off this boat for awhile and not waste myself.

Sifu Presbyteer's style is "Debating without Debating". So, I
volunteer myself to get in the little boat and go to the island myself
and take a break and go into long term prayer.

I'll watch your ship every once in a while, though.

For now, I have proclaiming to do to more bullies on other islands.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPMHBDbZdX8

Thanks for your thoughts PB. I wish you well. May you find peace.

To all:

If it is true that God uses all things to achieve his purpose, whether they be good or bad, then ultimately good and bad have no meaning. We also can take no comfort in him being in control because from our point of view at least God is completely indifferent to good and bad. So I can have no hope for the future that God has good things planned for me if I am to believe that he uses both good and bad things indifferently to achieve his purposes. However, the God I serve is not indifferent to good and bad. The fact that he is a good God makes striving for the good worthwhile. I fail to see how the idea that he uses good and bad things indifferently to achieve his aims can be squared with him being characteristically good.

To say that we must take on trust the notion that God works all things together for good is fatalism by another name. The only result is that whatever happens, such as the massacre which prompted this thread, we are forced to conclude that it was God's will and we are left with no evidence whatsoever to teach us what is his will and what is not.

However, the scripture informs us that the mature in Christ have their senses trained to distinguish between good and evil (Heb 5:14) and this statement should give us hope in the goodness of our God and that when we see an event such as the one in question, we can treat it for the evil that it so clearly is, to mourn and grieve and to steel ourselves to fight in his strength against such things and knowing that God is on our side in this.

The only thing that is logical for us to do in terms of the reformation faith is to accept it as God's will and move on. We are no better than muslims or fatalists if we accept that. We need hope.

I know that some will say that Romans 8 contradicts me, but this is just another of very many examples of how Calvinists proof text their teachings by taking verses out of context and I have commented on it specifically before.

God bless you all.

DR.

 

[Lighthouse]

If anyone wanted the clearest indication that no benevolent involved deity is running the whole show then Sandy Hook is surely one.
The mental gymnastics involved in Christians apologising for and explaining away or re-delegating blame simply to maintain their belief in their particular "God", despite such awfulness truly amazes me.
If you really believe that God exists then He is the one to blame by His by failing to prevent it.
Not some guy called Adam,
not gay people,
not liberals,
not Muslims,
not atheists,
God.

Fool.

 

[rainee]

Are you Laoshi Presby?
If you are, you are much more than a register plus!

I am sorry I wrote the post I did and would erase it if you told me to!
You have done wonderfully well!

On this forum we only listen when we are made to - or get a second or third chance. So you mustn't base anything on first responses! OK? Ok. I hope. Do NOT GO.

I believe you. You're right, I haven't been listening to anyone. I've
been praying for a while and no one listens to me either. Laoshi Presby
is a register plus and nothing more. I not sure I can be of any value
to TOL anyway. I'm more like being called away from this and
time for me to get off this boat for awhile and not waste myself.

Sifu Presbyteer's style is "Debating without Debating". So, I
volunteer myself to get in the little boat and go to the island myself
and take a break and go into long term prayer.

I'll watch your ship every once in a while, though.

For now, I have proclaiming to do to more bullies on other islands.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPMHBDbZdX8

 

[Lovebug]

Did God predestine this tragedy?

Answer: NO!

Let no one say when he is tempted, I am tempted by God; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;

Man is responsible for this wickedness not God.

Amen

 

[Lovebug]

No. The concept that God predestines such stuff is blasphemous. Massacres are the result of evil in people's hearts. God doesn't have anything to do with it. Man's free will and his choosing to do reject God has everything to do with it.

Amen

 

[Lovebug]

The pagan state took religious education out of the schools and replaced it with hopelessness. The young man was a product of the pagan state. I will blame the Church if you want.

No one is 'condemned' in the new covenant for 'the sin' of another for one reason.

1. God holds every individual accountable for his own unbelief..for now, none are without excuse.

We are no longer under moses, where men died for the sins of of one man, Adam....and, we are no longer under the law that was promised to come, because of Adam.

The new covenant replaced the old. It is a new system, with a new way of doing things.

That way is fair and Just for all men.

No longer can a man say....'my sin' is someone else's fault, and my actions, can be blamed on another.

The new covenant will not blame a 'pagan state', but it will do as the new covenant states...which is to put the blame on each individual, for all will stand before the judgement seat of Christ, individually and give an account of himself to God.

I am not sure of what your post is saying, but it kind of sounds like you want to put the blame on something other than the individual?

If so, you are wrong.

 

[Lovebug]

You mean that those EVIL children justifiably needed to die?

So much for free will . . . :sigh:.

What about the slaughter of children during the Palestinian Conquest? In my opinion you can't honestly use the Ctrl/Alt/Delete excuse for that act of barbarism?

ALL men 'justifiably' are considered DEAD, through the law of the old covenant. That would include you, if you were born during that time, for in Adam ALL die. (the power of sin was the law, and the law brought the death penalty to all men).

The good news is that through the death of one, Jesus Christ, He redeemed all those who were jusifiably condemned and cursed due to the law. (that includes you, even if you do not yet know it), for He included all under sin, all condemned, so that no man could boast.


The good news is that because He has removed you from the curse of the law, you can now choose to serve Him, or not. (You would not of had that choice, under Adam, for under Adam, ALL would be condemned once the law was added), and for the sin of one man/Adam.

So freely choose.

It is not His will that you perish, for your own unbelief...(your soul).

It was your flesh that Adam, and the law of moses condemned, and it still remains condemned, for it will never live, forever. If you don't believe me, just wait until you breathe your last breath and see if anything of you remains.


He wants to redeem your soul, now...and, He died to give you the right to accept it.

Your 'inner' man.

Your flesh was condemned long ago. (old covenant)

 

[Lovebug]

I still maintain that the pagan state is much to blame by substituting God with hopelessness.

Later that night, Huckabee complained on his TV show, Fox News' "Huckabee," that liberals were accusing him of saying that the shooting would not have happened if the United States had prayer in schools. Arguing that he "said nothing of the sort," Huckabee explained that he was talking about a broader cultural shift in which discussions about God, faith and morality are considered only appropriated in religious institutions, not the public square.

"It's far more than just taking prayer or Bible reading out of the schools. It's that fact that people sue a city so we're not confronted with a manger scene or a Christmas carol, and lawsuits are filed to remove a cross that's a memorial to fallen soldiers. Churches and Christian-owned businesses are told to surrender their values under the edict of government orders to provide tax funded abortion pills. We carefully and intentionally stop saying things are 'sinful' and we call them 'disorders.' Sometimes we even say they are normal. And, to get to where we have to abandon bedrock moral truths, then we are asked, well 'where was God?' And I respond that, as I see it, we've escorted Him right out of our culture and we've marched Him off the public square and then we express our surprise that a culture without Him actually reflects what it has become," Huckabee said.

After the tragedy, God did show up, Huckabee said, in the teachers who sacrificed themselves to save their students, the hugs and tears of family members, the policemen who risked their lives, in the Church vigils, and "in the White House, where the president invoked His name and quoted from His book."

Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/h...and-god-in-schools-86739/#2RwyKvmljP1fAOYo.99

http://www.christianpost.com/news/h...ut-newtown-shooting-and-god-in-schools-86739/

Hopelessness is not a dictatorship, it is an individual choice.

 

[Christ's Word]

If anyone wanted the clearest indication that no benevolent involved deity is running the whole show then Sandy Hook is surely one.
The mental gymnastics involved in Christians apologising for and explaining away or re-delegating blame simply to maintain their belief in their particular "God", despite such awfulness truly amazes me.
If you really believe that God exists then He is the one to blame by His by failing to prevent it.
Not some guy called Adam,
not gay people,
not liberals,
not Muslims,
not atheists,
God.

Christ explained why his Father allows the sinners to go on sinning right along with those living a righteous life. The answer is in the parable of the wheat and tares.

 

[alwight]

Christ explained why his Father allows the sinners to go on sinning right along with those living a righteous life. The answer is in the parable of the wheat and tares.

Is God not omnipotent and the creator of everything, both wheat and weeds, good and evil?

 

[Traditio]

Did God predestine this tragedy?

Answer: NO!

Let no one say when he is tempted, I am tempted by God; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;

Man is responsible for this wickedness not God.

Whatever there was in the tragedy of being, truth unity and goodness, God preordained it, created it and willed it to be. God created, willed and preordained the physical acts, the movements of the will, etc.

God foreknew, but did not will (but only permitted), the wickedness or sinfulness of the act(s).