toldailytopic: Did God predestine and therefore orchestrate the Sandy Hook Elementary

larssc

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Everything that happens is because God actively wills it.
Job, Jacob, etc.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

There are not two wills of God, just one. If he desired all men to be saved, they would be.

See :The Author of Sin by Vincent Cheung
 

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toldailytopic: Did God predestine and therefore orchestrate the Sandy Hook Elementary School massacre?


Genesis 50:20
Romans 8:28

Good’s goodness is always present in His providence (sovereignty).

“Where was God?” some will ask when these sort of terrible acts happen. We must not forget that the presence of God appears no less in the perpetual government of the world than in its creation. We must insist, along with Scripture, that God’s providence does not consist in a general motion or superintendence but that all events whatsoever are governed by His own counsel and directed by the present hand of God.

“‘All things’ may not be restricted, though undoubtedly the things contemplated are particularly those that fall within the compass of believers’ experience, especially suffering and adversity. Some of the ablest expositors maintain that ‘works together’ does not mean that all things working concert and cooperation with one another but that all things work in concert with the believer or with God. But it is not unnecessary and perhaps arbitrary to depart from the more natural sense, namely, that in the benign and all-embracing plan of God the discrete elements work together for good to them that love God. It is not to be supposed that they have nay virtue or efficacy in themselves to work in concert for this end. Though not expressed, the ruling thought is that in the sovereign love of and wisdom of God they are all made to converge and contribute to that goal. Many of the things comprised are evil in themselves and it is the marvel of God’s wisdom and grace that they, when taken in concert with the whole, are made to work together for good.”
(Src: John Murray, The Epistle to the Romans, [Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1973], Published as two volumes in one, 1:314).

Almighty God not only creates, but is also continually upholding the universe He created. God’s sovereignty shapes and directs the universe toward a designed and purposed goal (end) according to his own will.

Westminster Confession, Chapter 5:

I. God the great Creator of all things doth uphold (Heb. 1:3), direct, dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things (Dan. 4:34,35; Psalm 135:6; Acts 17:25,26,28; Job Chapters 38-41), from the greatest even to the least (Matthew 10:29-31), by his most wise and holy providence (Prov. 15:3; Psalm 104:24; 145:17), according to his infallible fore-knowledge (Acts 15:18; Psalm 94:8-11) and the free and immutable counsel of his own will (Eph. 1:11; Psalm 33:10,11), to the praise of the glory of his wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy (Is. 63:14; Eph. 3:10; Rom. 9:17; Gen. 45:7; Psalm 145:7).

II. Although, in relation to the fore-knowledge and decree of God, the first Cause, all things come to pass immutably, and infallibly (Acts 2:23); yet, by the same providence, he ordereth them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently (Gen. 8:22; Jer. 31:35; Ex. 21:13 with Dt. 19:5; 1 Kings 22:28,34; Is. 10:6,7).

III. God, in his ordinary providence, maketh use of means (Acts 27:31,44; Is.55:10,11; Hos.2:21,22), yet is free to work without (Hos. 1:7; Matthew 4:4; Job 34:20), above (Rom. 4:19-21), and against them (2 Kings 6:6; Dan. 3:27), at his pleasure.

IV. The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God so far manifest themselves in his providence, that it extendeth itself even to the first fall, and all other sins of angels and men (Rom. 11:32-34; 2 Sam. 24:1 with 1 Chron. 21:1; 1 Kings 22:22,23; 1 Chron. 10:4,13,14; 2 Sam. 16:10; Acts 2:23; 4:27,28); and that not by a bare permission (Acts 14:16), but such as hath joined with it a most wise and powerful bounding (Psalm 76:10; 2 Kings 19:28), and otherwise ordering, and governing of them, in a manifold dispensation, to his own holy ends (Gen. 1:20; Is. 10:6,7,12); yet so, as the sinfulness thereof proceedeth only from the creature, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin (James 1:13,14,17; 1 John 2:16; Psalm 50:21).​

With respect to the problem of evil, the Bible clearly teaches us God is LORD, God is perfect and evil is real. Attempts by those who would like to craft a God in the image of man in hopes of removing the “problem” via removal any one of these three important teachings results in heresy. Open theists will deny God is truly LORD, so He cannot be in charge. Yes, God is “good” but His power won’t enable Him, as the openist has limited God’s power. See also here. If God’s morality is unknown, we have Isalamists thinking God is happy when bad things happen. Lastly, when we deny the reality of evil, you have Christian Scientists hobbling away from accidents as if their limbs were not really broken.

Unlike these poor examples of trying to “solve” the “problem” of evil, we must turn to Scripture. Therein we find God, in His sovereign goodness permitting evil, punishing evil with evil, producing good out of evil, protecting his people amid evil, and purposing victory over evil. From Scripture we learn that the problem of evil is a practical problem (consider the writer of Psalm 73) of living by faith and trusting God. From Scripture’s teachings that we learn moral maturity and holiness are brought about in our battle with evil. We also learn that we are followers of Christ, who is a sufferer too.

So why doesn’t God suppress evil? We need to remember that evil is not evidence that God is not on the throne. Whatever calamity evil brings is being used by God for the maturing of his people and preparing us for glory. Indeed, evil is being used by God to a good end. God is supremely glorified through it. It is a matter of faith we must affirm rather than seeking to strip God of his sovereignty.

So, yes, God ordained what happened at Sandy Hook, ordaining it through the actions of the one who entered that school with murderous intent. That young man chose according to his greatest inclinations—that is, he chose freely.

Now the open theist, the Arminian, or the Molinist Catholic will cry “foul!” to these words. They all admit Scripture teaches God is sovereign and man is responsible. But they scurry to re-define “sovereign” to suit their purposes in some misguided attempt to get God off the hook, as it were. Well, thankfully, God does not need our pitiful defenses for His methods of ruling over His creation.

Oddly, and tellingly, some have no problem accepting God can speak a universe into existence out of nothing, but will continue to resist, cavil, and gnash teeth over God’s right to be sovereign, concurrently active in all events, and directing all things to their appointed end via necessary, free, or contingent events, thus infallibly knowing all past, present, and future—real, contingent, or possible—while also declaring man freely chooses according to his own inclinations. Make no mistake, I do not deny that the very notions we form in our minds are directed by the secret will of God to the end which God has designed. Secondly, In thus governing, God usually uses means in his ordinary providential procedure, yet he is not so bound by such means as to be compelled always to resort to their use. Moreover as an absolute sovereign, God is free to work without, above, or against means at his pleasure. Both the wicked wills of men and the holy will of God are operative in and converge upon the same event, and yet God is not defiled from the depravity which is the instrument of His holy designs. We want to ask, “How does God do this?” And some arrogantly provide all manner of answers, where none are given. I am confident that the same God who spoke the universe into existence is quite able to fulfill His righteous will by the wicked wills of wicked men while not being the author of these men’s sins without my having to redefine God’s sovereignty, omniscience, omnipotence, etc.

AMR
 
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chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
So, yes, God ordained what happened at Sandy Hook, ordaining it through the actions of the one who entered that school with murderous intent. That young man chose according to his greatest inclinations—that is, he chose freely.



Make no mistake, I do not deny that the very notions we form in our minds are directed by the secret will of God to the end which God has designed. Both the wicked wills of men and the holy will of God are operative in and converge upon the same event, and yet God is not defiled from the depravity which is the instrument of His holy designs.


I am confident that the same God who spoke the universe into existence is quite able to fulfill His righteous will by the wicked wills of wicked men while not being the author of these men’s sins without my having to redefine God’s sovereignty, omniscience, omnipotence, etc.

you don't have to redefine anything

all you have to do is ignore the definitions that we have
 

gcthomas

New member
In an atheistic world view what happened at Sandy Hook is NO DIFFERENT than a baleen whale eating dinner.
Have you ever heard an atheist say such nonsense?

An atheist cannot call what happened at Sandy Hook "evil" no more than they can call a whale eating a mouthful of small fish evil.
Evil is the severe, deliberate transgression of moral standards. Morality exists amongst atheists, so atheists can call things evil, and often do.

Matter, living or dead, is just that. There is no such thing as purpose, evil, good, justice, etc... All that there is...is opinion.
Atheists are no more likely to commit evil acts than those who believe in a god. Why do you think that atheists consider all matter as morally equal? Has any atheist told you that is what they believe?

We are just chemical reactions. Chemistry has no feelings. An Alka-Seltzer tablet placed in a container of water is just a chemical reaction.
Oh dear. I think you need to read up on emergent properties of complex systems as regards biological organisms and societies. You seem to be a few centuries behind.

An Alka-Seltzer tablet fizzing is not evil...it's a chemical reaction.
You've got something right!

When someone guns down multiple people we are merely witnessing the results of a chemical reaction. A chemical reaction is not evil and we are the result of chemical reactions.
A non sequitur, naturally. The huge number of organised chemical reactions come together to produce someone with a personality, ethics, judgement, fear, beliefs and free will (in all the important senses). Evil can be done by such a creature, with or without a god to set the rules.
 

Sealeaf

New member
In an atheistic world view what happened at Sandy Hook is NO DIFFERENT than a baleen whale eating dinner.

An atheist cannot call what happened at Sandy Hook "evil" no more than they can call a whale eating a mouthful of small fish evil.

Matter, living or dead, is just that. There is no such thing as purpose, evil, good, justice, etc... All that there is...is opinion.

We are just chemical reactions. Chemistry has no feelings. An Alka-Seltzer tablet placed in a container of water is just a chemical reaction.



An Alka-Seltzer tablet fizzing is not evil...it's a chemical reaction.

When someone guns down multiple people we are merely witnessing the results of a chemical reaction. A chemical reaction is not evil and we are the result of chemical reactions.

I had not thought the poster of this remark was an atheist, but he must be if he can articulate the Atheist position. Unless over course he is either God or a psychic and can therefore know the minds of others. If he is not a god, nor a psychic and is not an atheist then he must be attempting to make a straw man arguement. Tsk, Tsk...
 

ThePresbyteers

New member
... Please believe me. ...

I believe you. You're right, I haven't been listening to anyone. I've
been praying for a while and no one listens to me either. Laoshi Presby
is a register plus and nothing more. I not sure I can be of any value
to TOL anyway. I'm more like being called away from this and
time for me to get off this boat for awhile and not waste myself.

Sifu Presbyteer's style is "Debating without Debating". So, I
volunteer myself to get in the little boat and go to the island myself
and take a break and go into long term prayer.

I'll watch your ship every once in a while, though.

For now, I have proclaiming to do to more bullies on other islands.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPMHBDbZdX8
 

alwight

New member
toldailytopic: Did God predestine and therefore orchestrate the Sandy Hook Elementary School massacre?
If anyone wanted the clearest indication that no benevolent involved deity is running the whole show then Sandy Hook is surely one.
The mental gymnastics involved in Christians apologising for and explaining away or re-delegating blame simply to maintain their belief in their particular "God", despite such awfulness truly amazes me.
If you really believe that God exists then He is the one to blame by His by failing to prevent it.
Not some guy called Adam,
not gay people,
not liberals,
not Muslims,
not atheists,
God.
 

Sealeaf

New member
If anyone wanted the clearest indication that no benevolent involved deity is running the whole show then Sandy Hook is surely one.
The mental gymnastics involved in Christians apologising for and explaining away or re-delegating blame simply to maintain their belief in their particular "God", despite such awfulness truly amazes me.
If you really believe that God exists then He is the one to blame by His by failing to prevent it.
Not some guy called Adam,
not gay people,
not liberals,
not Muslims,
not atheists,
God.
Actually God is the one to pity because He/She/It has to endure being aware of all the pain, feeling all the pain, knowing He has the power to prevent all these evil things and still not allowing Himself to change or prevent any of them lest the Great Work of Creation fail to reach its planned conclusion.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
You're not paying attention to the Calvinist. The boy killed His mom on his own but God put the guns there before him and as a result, the boy used the gun to kill his mom.
Other people woulds pick up the gun to shoot a deer to feed their family.


Pay attention to my posts and Nang's. Pick up those whispers in the noisy rooms of TOL.

The free Willers are very, very, very loud.

You say; "God put the guns there??" Please tell
us you're kidding around, otherwise, you sound
like a "Nutso!!"
 

chatmaggot

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Evil is the severe, deliberate transgression of moral standards.

Is that your opinion or an absolute truth?

Morality exists amongst atheists, so atheists can call things evil, and often do.

Opinion exists among atheists as to what is or is not "moral" to them. But it is just a matter of opinion.

Oh dear. I think you need to read up on emergent properties of complex systems as regards biological organisms and societies. You seem to be a few centuries behind.

So atheists no longer believe that we are merely the result of chemical reactions? Chemicals can combine and form so called "societies" but I see funk on a stale lake gather together also but that doesn't make the funk moral.
 

gcthomas

New member
Is that your opinion or an absolute truth?

The word 'evil' comes from a proto-german which meant 'transgression'. It has been adopted lately for more god-related meanings, but the word is in wide use by those with or without religious beliefs and has been for millennia.

Opinion exists among atheists as to what is or is not "moral" to them. But it is just a matter of opinion.

As it is with christians - morality is discussed around the difficult cases. But, the views of the main immoral behaviours (murder, theft, deceit, etc.) are the same for atheists as for the religious. Not just opinion, then.

So atheists no longer believe that we are merely the result of chemical reactions? Chemicals can combine and form so called "societies" but I see funk on a stale lake gather together also but that doesn't make the funk moral.

Think about it, chatmaggot! We are the "complex interplay of complex" chemical reactions. 'Funk' is not sufficiently complex, naturally.
 

alwight

New member
Actually God is the one to pity because He/She/It has to endure being aware of all the pain, feeling all the pain, knowing He has the power to prevent all these evil things and still not allowing Himself to change or prevent any of them lest the Great Work of Creation fail to reach its planned conclusion.
Well that just seems like circular claptrap and spin based on probably the only way a believer could respond or even begin to justify such a thing.
But of course that requires a God who conveniently works in ways far too mysterious for us to understand and presumably the existence an evil archenemy entity to blame it all on.

My version however is that we simply live in a totally natural world and what happens in it is natural whether it is good, bad or "evil".

I really don't think that the continuation of Creation depends on innocent children having to be cruelly and brutally shot or if a few psycho nutters had perhaps been born just slightly less nutty. :plain:
 

Selaphiel

Well-known member
As it is with christians - morality is discussed around the difficult cases. But, the views of the main immoral behaviours (murder, theft, deceit, etc.) are the same for atheists as for the religious. Not just opinion, then.

The issue is not whether atheists have a sense of morality, I do not know of any significant theologian that has ever denied such a thing (the immoral behaviors you list are part of what the Christian would call the natural law known to all). The issue is whether that sense of morality follows from our ontology. Christianity morality follows from its ontology which informs its anthropology.
You can of course claim that most people are true to those most common moral behaviors, but that alone does not make them objective. Most people is simply a majority opinion, it is not the same as claiming that they objectively immoral or moral.
It is also quite easy to imagine cultures that did acts that most people today would find absolutely atrocious. The practice of infanticide in the ancient world being one example, as in leaving a child to die in the wild if it was unwanted. That was deemed as acceptable back then and I do not see a strictly materialistic atheist could claim that that was objectively wrong even then. A Christian would have no problem (as in he would remain coherent with his ontology) condeming such action across all periods and cultures. In fact, the Christianization of Rome largely led to the cessation of infanticide because it was universally condemened by Christian ethics.

alwight said:
If anyone wanted the clearest indication that no benevolent involved deity is running the whole show then Sandy Hook is surely one.
The mental gymnastics involved in Christians apologising for and explaining away or re-delegating blame simply to maintain their belief in their particular "God", despite such awfulness truly amazes me.
If you really believe that God exists then He is the one to blame by His by failing to prevent it.
Not some guy called Adam,
not gay people,
not liberals,
not Muslims,
not atheists,
God.

Lousy argument. Christian theology emphasizes that God has given the radical gift of freedom, even to do evil, since that is the only way to give the possibility of a meaningful communion.
There is one to blame alright, and that is the killer himself.

I really don't think that the continuation of Creation depends on innocent children having to be cruelly and brutally shot or if a few psycho nutters had perhaps been born just slightly less nutty

But we think a meaningful Creation depends on freedom.

And what evidence do you have for him being born that way? The frequency of such shootings are not evenly distributed across the world which seems to suggest that they are not explainable by people being born that way. Indeed homicide rates and cirminal rates in general seems to vary heavily from place to place.
 

Wile E. Coyote

New member
I still maintain that the pagan state is much to blame by substituting God with hopelessness.

Later that night, Huckabee complained on his TV show, Fox News' "Huckabee," that liberals were accusing him of saying that the shooting would not have happened if the United States had prayer in schools. Arguing that he "said nothing of the sort," Huckabee explained that he was talking about a broader cultural shift in which discussions about God, faith and morality are considered only appropriated in religious institutions, not the public square.

"It's far more than just taking prayer or Bible reading out of the schools. It's that fact that people sue a city so we're not confronted with a manger scene or a Christmas carol, and lawsuits are filed to remove a cross that's a memorial to fallen soldiers. Churches and Christian-owned businesses are told to surrender their values under the edict of government orders to provide tax funded abortion pills. We carefully and intentionally stop saying things are 'sinful' and we call them 'disorders.' Sometimes we even say they are normal. And, to get to where we have to abandon bedrock moral truths, then we are asked, well 'where was God?' And I respond that, as I see it, we've escorted Him right out of our culture and we've marched Him off the public square and then we express our surprise that a culture without Him actually reflects what it has become," Huckabee said.

After the tragedy, God did show up
, Huckabee said, in the teachers who sacrificed themselves to save their students, the hugs and tears of family members, the policemen who risked their lives, in the Church vigils, and "in the White House, where the president invoked His name and quoted from His book."

Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/h...and-god-in-schools-86739/#2RwyKvmljP1fAOYo.99

http://www.christianpost.com/news/h...ut-newtown-shooting-and-god-in-schools-86739/
 

alwight

New member
If anyone wanted the clearest indication that no benevolent involved deity is running the whole show then Sandy Hook is surely one.
The mental gymnastics involved in Christians apologising for and explaining away or re-delegating blame simply to maintain their belief in their particular "God", despite such awfulness truly amazes me.
If you really believe that God exists then He is the one to blame by His by failing to prevent it.
Not some guy called Adam,
not gay people,
not liberals,
not Muslims,
not atheists,
God.

Lousy argument. Christian theology emphasizes that God has given the radical gift of freedom, even to do evil, since that is the only way to give the possibility of a meaningful communion.
You would think that perhaps but nevertheless Christianity is compelled to explain away the "evil" (bad) things that happen, (imo to be expected in quite natural world) and this is their supernatural explanation.
But indeed it could well be their mantra even if in fact "freedom" was never true. It is simply the only way it can be supposed to cover it whether it is actually true or not, so it isn't even an argument imo.
But if your God has in effect given us complete autonomy then to all intents and purposes God doesn't exist for us, even if elsewhere He does. There would be no point in praying since nothing will change what will happen and therefore we live in a natural world where bad things just do happen as a matter of course.
If otoh God does intervene supernaturally in any way at all then it is your Christian argument that is lousy and collapses not mine.
IOW if God were in fact tinkering with our existence somehow then my argument clearly stands.
So do you think God ever intervenes supernaturally in anything at all but why apparently then does nothing when a nutter wants to kill innocent children?
Selective freedom perhaps?

There is one to blame alright, and that is the killer himself.

I really don't think that the continuation of Creation depends on innocent children having to be cruelly and brutally shot or if a few psycho nutters had perhaps been born just slightly less nutty

But we think a meaningful Creation depends on freedom.

And what evidence do you have for him being born that way? The frequency of such shootings are not evenly distributed across the world which seems to suggest that they are not explainable by people being born that way. Indeed homicide rates and cirminal rates in general seems to vary heavily from place to place.
I don't think we are all born the same with identical abilities and indeed some people are clearly just not capable of ever being responsible for what they do or at least have a diminished responsibility. What evidence do you have that a cold "evil" entity was at work rather than a naturally deranged mind?
 

Selaphiel

Well-known member
alwight said:
You would think that perhaps but nevertheless Christianity is compelled to explain away the "evil" (bad) things that happen, (imo to be expected in quite natural world) and this is their supernatural explanation.

You speak as if Christianity classicaly denied the reality of evil. Keep in mind that Christianity climaxed at a cross and resurrection. Reflection on evil and tragedy is at the heart of Christianity.

You assume the framework of your own world view when you evulate Christianity's reflection of evil. God was the exact same place in these shootings as he was when Christ was on the cross, St.Stephen got stoned, St.Paul decapitated and St.Peter crucified.

Not that you at any time has shown any interest in actually attempting to understand Christianity, you seem to be far too fond of your strawmen.

But indeed it could well be their mantra even if in fact "freedom" was never true. It is simply the only way it can be supposed to cover it whether it is actually true or not, so it isn't even an argument imo.

This is so convoluted that I can barely make out what you are trying to say. How is it not an argument? Real communion requires freedom, freedom allows for choosing evil, so evil happens. Seems coherent to me. Do you deny that you are free to make choices?

But if your God has in effect given us complete autonomy then to all intents and purposes God doesn't exist for us, even if elsewhere He does. There would be no point in praying since nothing will change what will happen and therefore we live in a natural world where bad things just do happen as a matter of course.

Does not follow at all. God desires communion with us, but we must freely choose it, otherwise there is no communion at all, all you have is possession.

I don't think we are all born the same with identical abilities and indeed some people are clearly just not capable of ever being responsible for what they do or at least have a diminished responsibility. What evidence do you have that a cold "evil" entity was at work rather than a naturally deranged mind?

And this is what we call a false dilemma and strawman argumentation. Where did I say that the two options were an "evil entity" or a deranged mind derived from birth? Where did I say that we were all born with identical abilities? Read my post, I did not blame an evil entity, I said the blame was with the perpetrator first and foremost. People who are deranged aren't necessarily genetically deranged, mental disorders can be conditionally developed over time. He should have sought help or if he was always mentally ill, help should have been given to him.
 

Selaphiel

Well-known member
Good video on this subject:



The problem of evil is a serious problem, I just do not think it disqualifies theism.
 

alwight

New member
You would think that perhaps but nevertheless Christianity is compelled to explain away the "evil" (bad) things that happen, (imo to be expected in quite natural world) and this is their supernatural explanation.
You speak as if Christianity classicaly denied the reality of evil. Keep in mind that Christianity climaxed at a cross and resurrection. Reflection on evil and tragedy is at the heart of Christianity.

You assume the framework of your own world view when you evulate Christianity's reflection of evil. God was the exact same place in these shootings as he was when Christ was on the cross, St.Stephen got stoned, St.Paul decapitated and St.Peter crucified.

Not that you at any time has shown any interest in actually attempting to understand Christianity, you seem to be far too fond of your strawmen.
Why bad things happen to good people is simply easier to explain when you don’t need to suppose a benevolent involved omnipotent deity. It’s a problem for you I understand that much and perhaps that “evil” needs to be explained as a discrete entity.

But indeed it could well be their mantra even if in fact "freedom" was never true. It is simply the only way it can be supposed to cover it whether it is actually true or not, so it isn't even an argument imo.
This is so convoluted that I can barely make out what you are trying to say. How is it not an argument? Real communion requires freedom, freedom allows for choosing evil, so evil happens. Seems coherent to me. Do you deny that you are free to make choices?
You may not want to understand me perhaps but since you will imo show me no evidence that we are left alone to have “freedom” rather than simply have it naturally then there really is no argument here at all from Christianity afaic just bald assertions and spin.

But if your God has in effect given us complete autonomy then to all intents and purposes God doesn't exist for us, even if elsewhere He does. There would be no point in praying since nothing will change what will happen and therefore we live in a natural world where bad things just do happen as a matter of course.
Does not follow at all. God desires communion with us, but we must freely choose it, otherwise there is no communion at all, all you have is possession.
How exactly do you know what God wants?
Maybe God does interact with humanity in some supernatural way or is it just one way traffic?
Unless He does then God may as well not exist as far as we are concerned and bad things probably will happen to good people which He has to endure too but will do nothing about apparently.
So do you think God ever intervenes supernaturally in anything at all but why apparently then does nothing when a nutter wants to kill innocent children?
Selective freedom?
I noticed you seem to have no answer for my questions above btw.

I don't think we are all born the same with identical abilities and indeed some people are clearly just not capable of ever being responsible for what they do or at least have a diminished responsibility. What evidence do you have that a cold "evil" entity was at work rather than a naturally deranged mind?
And this is what we call a false dilemma and strawman argumentation. Where did I say that the two options were an "evil entity" or a deranged mind derived from birth? Where did I say that we were all born with identical abilities? Read my post, I did not blame an evil entity, I said the blame was with the perpetrator first and foremost. People who are deranged aren't necessarily genetically deranged, mental disorders can be conditionally developed over time. He should have sought help or if he was always mentally ill, help should have been given to him.
I didn’t say it was what you said, I’m suggesting what I think is the only logical alternative to a mental disorder, and also what Christians more generally will claim, an “evil” entity was at work, whether supernatural or not.
 
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