The Wonderful Dispensation of Grace

[lightninboy]

thelaqachisnext,

I used to listen to Chuck Smith on the radio. A lot of good music came out of Maranatha!. A non-denominational church can be kind of nice. On the other hand, to not reject Arminianism is to accept it.

I see the Book of Enoch can be read online. Would you say the gospel is in it? Where?

You're saying that the baptism for the dead is just another way of describing believer's baptism by immersion?

http://www.gracethrufaith.com/selah/holidays-and-holy-days/pentecost-and-the-rapture-of-the-church

 

[thelaqachisnext]

thelaqachisnext,

I used to listen to Chuck Smith on the radio. A lot of good music came out of Maranatha!. A non-denominational church can be kind of nice. On the other hand, to not reject Arminianism is to accept it.

I see the Book of Enoch can be read online. Would you say the gospel is in it? Where?

You're saying that the baptism for the dead is just another way of describing believer's baptism by immersion?

http://www.gracethrufaith.com/selah/holidays-and-holy-days/pentecost-and-the-rapture-of-the-church

QUOTE=lightninboy]thelaqachisnext,

I used to listen to Chuck Smith on the radio. A lot of good music came out of Maranatha!. A non-denominational church can be kind of nice. On the other hand, to not reject Arminianism is to accept it.

I see the Book of Enoch can be read online. Would you say the gospel is in it? Where?

You're saying that the baptism for the dead is just another way of describing believer's baptism by immersion?

http://www.gracethrufaith.com/selah/holidays-and-holy-days/pentecost-and-the-rapture-of-the-church[/QUOTE]
I like Dr Martyn Lloyd- Jones better than Chuck Smith, to listen to because of the anointing to preach L-Jones had [I have hardly ever listened to Chuck Smith, in fact]; and I am not reformed -and neither is YHWH, and He respects no denomination or sect or man, but respects those that fear Him -and Dr ML-Jones did.
As Jesus Christ come in fully human being flesh is the Gospel =the Good News for all mankind, then yes, the Gospel is in 1 Enoch.

The Son of Man in Enoch whom Enoch saw as the Secret, the concealed, the Hidden in God from the beginning, Chosen, Anointed,, Holy One; who was to come to be revealed to the elect, and whose name was secret, hidden, until His revealing to the elect, and whom the Father committed all judgment to, who was to come and is to come on His Throne of glory -who sits down on the Father’s throne, who regenerates the heavens and the earth after the millennial reign, who gives eternal life to the righteous in His name, and who the Father said, in Enoch, that “I and My Son will be united with them” [as Jesus prayed in John 17], is the Light to the Gentiles as Enoch was told, and the Savior of earth.
How He accomplished our redemption is laid out in the Living Oracles, which He committed to His namesake people -“Israel”.

The theme of 1 Corinthians 15 is the resurrection of the dead body, and water baptism is an oracle committed to the Believers to perform in obedience to His command and an act of confessing Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection for one’s own self, confessing His death for you and your old man burial with Him and your New Man resurrection in Him.

 

[thelaqachisnext]

The Didache was supposed to be "The Lord's Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles to the Nations"; at any rate, it shows water baptism continuing as Jesus commanded, to the nations.


http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-07/anf07-36.htm#P4972_1856878

Chapter VII.-Concerning Baptism.

1. And concerning baptism,73 thus baptize ye:74 Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,75 in living water.76 2. But if thou have not living water, baptize into other water; and if thou3canst not in cold, in warm. 3. But if thou have not either, pour out water thrice77 upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. 4. But before the baptism let the4baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but thou shalt order the baptized to fast one or two days before.78

http://www.didache-garrow.info/


The Didache (pronounced 'Didarkay') is a Christian manual giving unique details regarding baptism, eucharist and church leadership from an early period of Christian development. Its name comes from the title, 'The Teaching (Didache) of the Lord, by the Twelve Apostles, to the Gentiles'. A rough table of its contents runs as follows:
Didache 1-6 - a collection of Jewish moral instructions to be adopted by Gentiles who want to be baptised.
Didache 7 - brief instructions for the baptism service itself.
Didache 8 - instructions for fasting and prayer, including a version of the Lord's Prayer that is very similar, but not identical, to that in Matthew's Gospel.
Didache 9 and 10 - two sets of eucharistic prayers.
Didache 11-15 - various instructions regarding church leaders and visitors.
Didache 16 - a warning about the events of the last days.

 

[thelaqachisnext]

-Oh, I forgot,lightninboy,
On Armenianism vs Calvinism; the Scriptures teach that all in Adam were written in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world, and were created to be sons of God in Adam, and so were all written down in His Book to come forth by the multiplying of Adam.

Jesus came to ransom all on the list -but those whose names were never on the list were those nephillim [sons of the fallen angels -which are the demons roaming earth, disembodied today] , and those whose names get blotted out will not be resurrected in His New Man image, but will be resurrected in the image of Adam and cast into the lake of fire body and soul, as rejects.

There is no getting one's name written into the Book of Life, as it was written before we came into being; but there is the blotting out of one's name which can only happen when they come into their being and live their life rejecting the Light that lights every man that comes into the world or neglecting the Light, or seeking the Light and getting the "Revelation of His Name" [a term for second birth in 1 Enoch [carried through by Paul, a student of Enoch, himself]..
The blotting out of one's name from the book of life is first revealed in Enoch -and fully revealed in Enoch- and is why Moses could make mention so freely of that fact, for it was already revealed in Enoch.
All are "called", but not not all are "Chosen", and that is made very plain in Enoch; for we were all made in the image of Jesus Christ who is God the Word; who was to come in human kind flesh, and God wanted His own back, for His glory.

Romans 5:14 says Adam was made in the image [tupos] of Jesus Christ; and we were made, in Adam, to be sons of God [Malachi 2:15] and He came to bring us back to being sons of God by the adoption into His New Man name -for whosoever will.

Neither Calvinism, nor open thiesm, nor Arminianism are true, for there is no writing in and blotting out of names going on, and God knows the end from the beginning, He says in Enoch; and all that each of us will do is known before we do it -but He gave us freewill to do our will -or His will; and He assigned the place for us based on our acceptance of His will or our defiance of His will -but we come forth as the multiplied seed and must live our own lives, ourselves; He does not live them for us and no man can blame God for their own choices, in the end, for the secrets of each heart will be made manifest and no lie will be uttered before Him on that day -says Enoch, and God did not make sin, He says in Enoch, but man brought it into the world, He says in Enoch, and as Paul repeats.

 

[patman]

thelaqachisnext,

I used to listen to Chuck Smith on the radio. A lot of good music came out of Maranatha!. A non-denominational church can be kind of nice. On the other hand, to not reject Arminianism is to accept it.

I see the Book of Enoch can be read online. Would you say the gospel is in it? Where?

You're saying that the baptism for the dead is just another way of describing believer's baptism by immersion?

http://www.gracethrufaith.com/selah/holidays-and-holy-days/pentecost-and-the-rapture-of-the-church

You guys know the book of Enoch is not a reliable source, right?

I believe it is just made up, at best. If there is any truth to it, it is impossible to tell where because it has been changed enough through time.

IF Enoch wrote this book, it would be a book that pre-dates the flood. It would have had to be passed down from Noah, who spoke the original language through time and preserved after the language change in the tower of Babel, and kept in that same language all the way to today, and it would have had to be in a language that the Jews could read.

According to a little research I just did, It was written in Ethiopic, which does not date back that far, at all.

People sometimes look at it because a sentence from it was quoted in one of the books of the Bible. 3 John I think? But just because a book in the bible quotes a small sentence in it doesn't mean we can go running to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_enoch#History
"A great deal of the undercurrent to the narrative of the sections has been claimed to be concerned with the era of the Maccabees and it is for that reason that these western scholars date the sections as having originated during or after the 2nd century BC, although these assertions have not proved convincing to all concerned, for what they say is lack of any legitimate evidence of Maccabean-era authorship. 1 Enoch 6–11, part of the Book of Watchers, is thought to have been the original core of that Book, around which the remainder was later added, not least because Enoch is not mentioned in it."

 

[lightninboy]

How He accomplished our redemption is laid out in the Living Oracles, which He committed to His namesake people -“Israel”.

The Bible is a Jewish book which reveals a Jewish God, a Jewish Savior Jesus Christ, a Jewish land, Israel, a Jewish capital Jerusalem, a Jewish throne of David, and a Jewish kingdom to come. All these truths were revealed to the Jews in the oracles of God.

http://www.deanburgonsociety.org/Preaching/oracles.htm

 

[thelaqachisnext]

You guys know the book of Enoch is not a reliable source, right?

I believe it is just made up, at best. If there is any truth to it, it is impossible to tell where because it has been changed enough through time.

IF Enoch wrote this book, it would be a book that pre-dates the flood. It would have had to be passed down from Noah, who spoke the original language through time and preserved after the language change in the tower of Babel, and kept in that same language all the way to today, and it would have had to be in a language that the Jews could read.

According to a little research I just did, It was written in Ethiopic, which does not date back that far, at all.

People sometimes look at it because a sentence from it was quoted in one of the books of the Bible. 3 John I think? But just because a book in the bible quotes a small sentence in it doesn't mean we can go running to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_enoch#History
"A great deal of the undercurrent to the narrative of the sections has been claimed to be concerned with the era of the Maccabees and it is for that reason that these western scholars date the sections as having originated during or after the 2nd century BC, although these assertions have not proved convincing to all concerned, for what they say is lack of any legitimate evidence of Maccabean-era authorship. 1 Enoch 6–11, part of the Book of Watchers, is thought to have been the original core of that Book, around which the remainder was later added, not least because Enoch is not mentioned in it."

No; Enoch is not made up; MAD doctrine is made up, but Enoch refuted MAD doctrine thousands of years before MAD doctrine was thought up.
1 Enoch is quoted in the NT and the OT, and Paul quotes Enoch many, many, times -as loosely as he quotes the OT, nonetheless, he does quote it.
Jesus quotes it, James, Jude, Peter, and John all quote it.

It predates the NT by hundreds of years at the very least [but I believe Enoch indeed wrote it].
You do not have to believe it is inspired but you cannot get away with claiming it was not known and used before the NT, and it is quoted over a hundred times in the NT.

It was found in the Qumram caves and those different copies in different languages and parts of the book in different languages dated it to at least third century BC, but as Hannah quoted from it , and the book of Job, and Daniel, Isaiah, and Moses, besides others, and as Revelation is also connected to the things Enoch reported, and as many of the early Church Fathers quoted it and called it Scripture, there is no way MAD doctrine can stand against what was known and used and what refutes MAD doctrine so soundly and completely.

The angel in Daniel 10 told Daniel he would show him what was written [inscribed] in the Scripture of truth concerning Daniel's people until the end.
the Angel then proceeded to show Daniel all those things in chapter 11 and 12.
So where is the Scripture of Truth that the angel read from and showed to Daniel?

Dan 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is inscribed in the scripture of truth:...

And what do you think about Romans 1:21-25? -do you believe this is true?

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

I believe it is true, and I believe that the LORD Jesus called Himself the "AMEN" for that exact reason, that He was the AMEN, the Hidden God, as Enoch reported, who was kept secret until the time of His revealing; but the Egyptians changed the truth of the AMEN to a lie, as Paul said all the nations did do.

Jesus calls Himself the AMEN;
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Now, go read about the Hidden Son of Man who was with God and was God, who was kept secret, concealed, whose name was secret, who is the [solemn] Word of God, His "Oath", who made all things and upholds all things, who was to come. and is come, and is revealed, since His coming in His appointed Season, to the "elect" -which appointed season is the "fulness of times"; whose name was secret, which secret name the angels desired to look into, in whose name the righteous are saved.

Jesus Christ is the Messiah, the Elect One, the Hidden in God Son of Man, who is coming on His Throne of Glory to judge the world at His coming, as Enoch said He would do -and the secret Name is "Israel", which He gave to Jacob as a sign of the adoption to come when His appointed Season was fulfilled.
We call Him "Salvation =Jesus" [Hosea and Isaiah and Oshea all mean Salvation, the noun name, but "Yeshua" is the "garments of Salvation" He came to give us; but the Father called His name "Israel"; Isaiah 49.

As "Israel", the Firstborn of the earth, He is the second created 'Man', the 'Isyh' of earth, who is the Word of God come in a full human nature "prepared body" as Kinsman to Adam, to do the duty of Kinsman for earth -for Adam's lost dominion. Isaiah 59 shows He donned the human being body [the second created "husband" ='Isyh- body] as a garment of "Kinsman" to bring forth the justice for the earth.




.

 

[lightninboy]

The Book of Enoch:

http://www.exodus2006.com/ENOCH.HTM

http://bible.tmtm.com/wiki/Book_of_Enoch
http://www.livius.org/ei-er/enoch/enoch.htm
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Book-Enoch-Truth-Christian-Imagin/dp/0281058210

 

[godrulz]

The Book of Enoch:

]

...is not canonical.

 

[patman]

No; Enoch is not made up; MAD doctrine is made up, but Enoch refuted MAD doctrine thousands of years before MAD doctrine was thought up.
1 Enoch is quoted in the NT and the OT, and Paul quotes Enoch many, many, times -as loosely as he quotes the OT, nonetheless, he does quote it.
Jesus quotes it, James, Jude, Peter, and John all quote it.

It predates the NT by hundreds of years at the very least [but I believe Enoch indeed wrote it].
You do not have to believe it is inspired but you cannot get away with claiming it was not known and used before the NT, and it is quoted over a hundred times in the NT.

It was found in the Qumram caves and those different copies in different languages and parts of the book in different languages dated it to at least third century BC, but as Hannah quoted from it , and the book of Job, and Daniel, Isaiah, and Moses, besides others, and as Revelation is also connected to the things Enoch reported, and as many of the early Church Fathers quoted it and called it Scripture, there is no way MAD doctrine can stand against what was known and used and what refutes MAD doctrine so soundly and completely.

The angel in Daniel 10 told Daniel he would show him what was written [inscribed] in the Scripture of truth concerning Daniel's people until the end.
the Angel then proceeded to show Daniel all those things in chapter 11 and 12.
So where is the Scripture of Truth that the angel read from and showed to Daniel?


And what do you think about Romans 1:21-25? -do you believe this is true?

I believe it is true, and I believe that the LORD Jesus called Himself the "AMEN" for that exact reason, that He was the AMEN, the Hidden God, as Enoch reported, who was kept secret until the time of His revealing; but the Egyptians changed the truth of the AMEN to a lie, as Paul said all the nations did do.

Jesus calls Himself the AMEN;
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Now, go read about the Hidden Son of Man who was with God and was God, who was kept secret, concealed, whose name was secret, who is the [solemn] Word of God, His "Oath", who made all things and upholds all things, who was to come. and is come, and is revealed, since His coming in His appointed Season, to the "elect" -which appointed season is the "fulness of times"; whose name was secret, which secret name the angels desired to look into, in whose name the righteous are saved.

Jesus Christ is the Messiah, the Elect One, the Hidden in God Son of Man, who is coming on His Throne of Glory to judge the world at His coming, as Enoch said He would do -and the secret Name is "Israel", which He gave to Jacob as a sign of the adoption to come when His appointed Season was fulfilled.
We call Him "Salvation =Jesus" [Hosea and Isaiah and Oshea all mean Salvation, the noun name, but "Yeshua" is the "garments of Salvation" He came to give us; but the Father called His name "Israel"; Isaiah 49.

As "Israel", the Firstborn of the earth, He is the second created 'Man', the 'Isyh' of earth, who is the Word of God come in a full human nature "prepared body" as Kinsman to Adam, to do the duty of Kinsman for earth -for Adam's lost dominion. Isaiah 59 shows He donned the human being body [the second created "husband" ='Isyh- body] as a garment of "Kinsman" to bring forth the justice for the earth.

It is a mistake to base your theology on a book that isn't even a part of the Bible. Especially Enoch. Like you said, it was written before the 1st Century, I know that, I showed the quote that it dated to the Maccabees. But to have been written by Enoch, it would have to date back another 1500 years.

And that isn't a simple thing, as I already said It happened before the flood, Enoch would have had to speak Ethiopic/Ge'ez, and that written language isn't old enough either.

These kill any hopes that it was written by Enoch. Chances are, it quoted other OT books, not visa versa because it was written hundreds of years after the OT, including Daniel.

You would have to say the original language spoken by man would be a form of Aramaic...

There are reasons the early church fathers did not include it in the Bible.

I'll listen to Paul, he knew what was truth, but he never affirmed the book that was made to mirror Daniel in many aspects. The book would have the appearance of truth when it copies other truths. But Paul's message is true, the book of Enoch... not scripture.

Stop using it to support your theology.

 

[lightninboy]

Okay, Lighthouse, how much longer until you reply about John 3:16?

godrulz, you don't have to reply about John 3:16.

 

[lightninboy]

thelaqachisnext,

Since you are neither Arminian nor Calvinist nor Catholic, do you believe it is possible for one to lose his salvation?

Did Judas Iscariot lose his salvation?

 

[thelaqachisnext]

thelaqachisnext,

Since you are neither Arminian nor Calvinist nor Catholic, do you believe it is possible for one to lose his salvation?

Did Judas Iscariot lose his salvation?

-nor protestant
Of course he did! -but he had not yet been regenerated in Spirit, for Christ had not risen.

Judas' name was "written in heaven" [from the foundation of the world] and written there along with all who were to ever be born "in Adam", who were to come forth as the multiplied seed of Adam, and as such were chosen for redemption in Christ [In His New Man name, as Adam is irreversibly dead in spirit], from the foundation of the world; and before Jesus rose from the dead and gave His promised "New Man" Spirit of regeneration to His disciples, Judas' name was written in the Book of Life, from which it got blotted out when He denied the name of the LORD by his betrayel of Him.


Demons -those disembodied foul evil spirits, the offspring of the fallen angels and daughters of Adam- were not written in the Book of Life, with Adam, and cannot be redeemed, and specifically will not, then, rise from the dead, as all born in Adam will rise from the dead in their own bodies -some to everlasting life and some to everlasting damnation.
Only those whose names were not written in the Book of Life written from the foundation of the world are not redeemable and cannot be redeemed; they are the 'dead' who will not rise, but who will be cast into the lake of fire to be tormented forever at His coming to reign on His throne of glory [Which Enoch reports and the demons have long ago read, and they asked Jesus if He was come to torment them before the [appointed] time, and asked Him to send them into the pigs instead of into the Abyss [as reported in 1 Enoch will be their destiny at the coming of the Messiah to reign on earth].

Mat 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? =the appointed season

And in Luke, we read that they requested not to be cast into the "Abyss" -the place of torment described in 1 Enoch, for the demons and fallen angels and for all who take the devils' part, with them, against God.
.
Luk 8:31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the abyss.
abyss; abussos 1) bottomless 2) unbounded
3) the abyss a) the pit
c) of Orcus, a very deep gulf or chasm in the lowest parts of the earth used as the common receptacle of the dead and especially as the abode of demons
~~~~

The disciples were not to rejoice that the demons were subject to them in Jesus' name [in His authourity], but to rejoice that their names were written in the Book of Life "in heaven".
So, yes, Judas lost his "salvation" which was promised to every seed born in Adam, who, as seed, "'had" the proclamation of the deliverance to come, while yet in the loins of Adam [Genesis 3:15], as surely as Levi paid tithes while yet "seed" in Abraham's loins -Hebrews 7:9 "And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham".

So, to sum up: all seed multiplied in Adam, as Adamkind, were called to be sons of God in the New Man, from the beginning, because Adam was made in the image of God -and He came to get His own back," for the Glory". But though all in Adam are written in the Book of Life, not all will come to the Light that lights every Adam that comes into the world, and by that seeking of Him, come to the knowledge of the Son of God:
and those who do not seek Him who first seeks them, or who do come to Him but deny His name [the unforgivable sin] get their names blotted out of the Book of Life by their own choices made with their own will while they have their own being intact -while they live their alloted time on earth, as seed of Adam.


Luk 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Peter quoted from Psalm 69 and 109 about Judas, in Acts 1, and if you go check the context, his name was to be blotted out of the Book of Life -along with those Pharisees who committed blasphemy against the Holy Spirit willfully, by having Jesus put to death, in full knowledge that Jesus was the promised Messiah, the Son of Man/Son of God spoken of in 1 Enoch, who was to come on His throne of glory,when the wicked will all be removed from the earth and His Peace will reign for the Last Day of this present earth.

Acts 1:20; [Peter speaking]
"For it is written in the Book of Psalms:

'Let his dwelling place be desolate,
And let no one live in it';* [Psalms 69:25]

'Let* another take his *office.' [Psalm 109:8]
and Psalm 69 says specifically about those whom Peter says Judas was one of;
Psa 69:28 "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous".
And Peter said;
Psa 109:8 Let his days be few; [and] let another take his office.

Acts 1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the *disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said, 16 "Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; 17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry."

~~~~~~
-and Jesus quoted 1 Enoch, applying a phrase from there to Judas; "It had been good for them if they had not been born.".
Mar 14:21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible...omans%208&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=ro&ng=8&ncc=8
The Son of man goeth (5719) as it is written (5769) of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed (5743) ! it had been (5713) good for that man if he had not been born (5681) .

http://www.ccel.org/c/charles/otpseudepig/enoch.htm

from 1 Enoch Chapter 38
1 The first Parable.
When the congregation of the righteous shall appear,
And sinners shall be judged for their sins,
And shall be driven from the face of the earth:

2 And when the Righteous One shall appear before the eyes of the righteous,
Whose elect works hang upon the Lord of Spirits,
And light shall appear to the righteous and the elect who dwell on the earth,

Where then will be the dwelling of the sinners,

And where the resting-place of those who have denied the Lord of Spirits?
It had been good for them if they had not been born.

 

[thelaqachisnext]

...is not canonical.

Whose 'accepted' canon? -Rome's no; Ethiopian coptic church; yes; many early Church Fathers; Yes.
As to canon of the western Church, neither is the "Scripture of Truth" accepted canon -which the angels read: -So?

Dan 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is inscribed***in the scripture of truth: and [there is] none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
So, godrulz, where did all that information about Daniel's people come from, which the angels read in the written Scripture of Truth, which he showed Daniel in Daniel chapters 11 and 12?

 

[thelaqachisnext]

It is a mistake to base your theology on a book that isn't even a part of the Bible. Especially Enoch. Like you said, it was written before the 1st Century, I know that, I showed the quote that it dated to the Maccabees. But to have been written by Enoch, it would have to date back another 1500 years.

And that isn't a simple thing, as I already said It happened before the flood, Enoch would have had to speak Ethiopic/Ge'ez, and that written language isn't old enough either.

These kill any hopes that it was written by Enoch. Chances are, it quoted other OT books, not visa versa because it was written hundreds of years after the OT, including Daniel.

You would have to say the original language spoken by man would be a form of Aramaic...

There are reasons the early church fathers did not include it in the Bible.

I'll listen to Paul, he knew what was truth, but he never affirmed the book that was made to mirror Daniel in many aspects. The book would have the appearance of truth when it copies other truths. But Paul's message is true, the book of Enoch... not scripture.

Stop using it to support your theology.

Whose Bible?
Where is the Scripture of Truth written which can be read which the angels read and which the angel showed Daniel the things from, concerning Daniel's people until the end?

Whose writings do you base your doctrine on? -someone who wrote thousands of years after Enoch, for sure! Why do you believe you have the writings of Moses, written 3500 years ago, today?

Abraham was the tenth generation from Shem and knew Shem, say the ancient Jews [even lived with him for a time, says an ancient Jewish source], and Shem is called "Melche" in the OT, and Shem gave Abram the blessing of Firstborn, in the OT, the partiarchal blessing of Priest/King, which goes back to Adam as the Priest/ King ruler of earth, which passed down from Adam, the dead, to Jesus Christ through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, .....Judah, David....Jesus.


The Egyptians first worshipped the one God, the Hidden God "Amen", before they changed His truth into a lie, whose name is hidden, and what they first spoke of him is from Enoch; and Jesus says He is the "Amen", in Revelation 1.

Here's a bit on "canon";

http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/canon2.stm

Whose Canon? Which Bible?

Biblical scrolls

Protestants tend to think there is only one Bible--ours.

Actually different religious groups of the Judeo-Christian tradition have different biblical canons.
Different Inside Books

Some canons are smaller than the Protestant Bible; others are larger:

* The smallest Bible is claimed by the Samaritans, who recognize only the first five books of the Bible (the Pentateuch).
* The largest Bible is that of the Ethiopian Orthodox church, which has 81 books

New Testament

Protestants, Roman Catholics, and Greek Orthodox Christians agree on the same 27 books for the composition of the New Testament; however some smaller groups of Christians do not. The Nestorian, or Syrian church, recognizes only 22 books, excluding 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, Jude and Revelation.

On the other hand, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church includes the same 27 books in its "narrower" canon but adds 8 books to its "broader" canon: "four sections of church order from a compilation called Sinodos, two sections from the Ethiopic Books of Covenant, Ethiopic Clement, and Ethiopic Didascalia."1
Old Testament

The Jewish Bible and the Protestant Old Testament contain the same books but they are arranged in a different order. Additionally, books that Protestant Christians divide into two parts (Kings, Chronicles, Samuel, and Ezra-Nehemiah) are only one book in the Hebrew Bible.

In terms of the Old Testament, Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox, and other Eastern Christians claim more "inside books".

The books of the "second canon" are considered "inside" by Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, and Ethiopic Christians; the latter group adds even more books beyond the deuterocanonicals. Protestants consider the same books "outside" however they give the Apocrypha high status, considering them valuable for instruction and spiritual edification.

The Ethiopian Orthodox church's narrower Old Testament canon includes the books of the Hebrew Bible, all of the Apocrypha, and "Jubilees, 1 Enoch, and Joseph ben Gurion's (Josippon's) medieval history of the Jews and other nations." 2

and I do not think the "Song of Solomon" is inspired Scripture and I do not believe it belongs in the Word of God, and many Jews also thought the same, in times past.

 

[Bob Hill]

I believe the Majority Text as presented by Farstad & Hodges is the system to follow for ascertaining the text for most of the NT.

The book of Revelation has its own problems, but in general, I would follow the MT there also.

Wilbur N. Pickering, in his “The identity of the New Testament Text”, is the best work on the subject in my estimation.

Since the vast majority of the manuscript evidence supports the reading, oikonomia, I believe we should translate it dispensation.

The Dispensation of Grace was given to us by God after He raised up Saul, who was called Paul most of the time in the New Testament.

This new message of grace was much different from the previoius message God had for Israel.

Today, we are saved by believing in Jesus Christ as our Savior.

Bob

 

[thelaqachisnext]

Today yesterday and Tomorrow the Seed of the Woman who was to come as the True Mercy Seat of YHWH in a second human being body of New Man flesh as Adam''s Kinsman, was the Salvation for all in Adam, through which His Grace from His Mercy Seat body, which received His New Man blood of sprinkling as the final Atonement, which put away sin, which was the Acceptable sacrifice for all in Adam, so that they could come to be made whole in His name would flow, in the appointed Season of His coming.

The book of 1 Enoch was quoted much by Paul -as loosely as he quoted the OT- and Jude, James, John, Peter all quoted from 1 Enoch, and the four Gospels [of which one was written by Paul's traveling companion, Luke] all show us that Jesus Christ was well acquainted with 1 Enoch and much of His doctrine is from 1 Enoch.

1 Enoch refutes MAD doctrine soundly and completely, for Jesus Christ is the Hidden in God Son of Man who was with God and was God, and was kept secret [not revealed until His coming in human being flesh] until His revealing, whose name was secret, not known, until revealed.
from Enoch, on the Son of Man

[Chapter 62]

1 And thus the Lord commanded the kings and the mighty and the exalted, and those who dwell on the earth, and said:

' Open your eyes and lift up your horns if ye are able to recognize the Elect One.'

2 And the Lord of Spirits seated him on the throne of His glory,

And the spirit of righteousness was poured out upon him,

And the word of his mouth slays all the sinners,

And all the unrighteous are destroyed from before his face.

3 And there shall stand up in that day all the kings and the mighty,

And the exalted and those who hold the earth,

And they shall see and recognize How he sits on the throne of his glory,

And righteousness is judged before him,

And no lying word is spoken before him.

4 Then shall pain come upon them as on a woman in travail,

[And she has pain in bringing forth]

When her child enters the mouth of the womb,

And she has pain in bringing forth.

5 And one portion of them shall look on the other,

And they shall be terrified,

And they shall be downcast of countenance,

And pain shall seize them,

When they see that Son of Man Sitting on the throne of his glory.

6 And the kings and the mighty and all who possess the earth shall bless and glorify and extol him who rules over all, who was hidden.

7 For from the beginning the Son of Man was hidden,

And the Most High preserved him in the presence of His might,

And revealed him to the elect.

8 And the congregation of the elect and holy shall be sown,

And all the elect shall stand before him on that day.

9 And all the kings and the mighty and the exalted and those who rule the earth

Shall fall down before him on their faces,

And worship and set their hope upon that Son of Man,

And petition him and supplicate for mercy at his hands.

10 Nevertheless that Lord of Spirits will so press them

That they shall hastily go forth from His presence,

And their faces shall be filled with shame,

And the darkness grow deeper on their faces.

11 And He will deliver them to the angels for punishment,

To execute vengeance on them because they have oppressed His children and His elect

12 And they shall be a spectacle for the righteous and for His elect:

They shall rejoice over them,

Because the wrath of the Lord of Spirits resteth upon them,

And His sword is drunk with their blood.

13 And the righteous and elect shall be saved on that day,

And they shall never thenceforward see the face of the sinners and unrighteous.

14 And the Lord of Spirits will abide over them,

And with that Son of Man shall they eat

And lie down and rise up for ever and ever.

15 And the righteous and elect shall have risen from the earth,

And ceased to be of downcast countenance.

And they shall have been clothed with garments of glory,

16 And these shall be the garments of life from the Lord of Spirits:

And your garments shall not grow old,

Nor your glory pass away before the Lord of Spirits.

 

[godrulz]

Whose 'accepted' canon? -Rome's no; Ethiopian coptic church; yes; many early Church Fathers; Yes.
As to canon of the western Church, neither is the "Scripture of Truth" accepted canon -which the angels read: -So?

Dan 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is inscribed***in the scripture of truth: and [there is] none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
So, godrulz, where did all that information about Daniel's people come from, which the angels read in the written Scripture of Truth, which he showed Daniel in Daniel chapters 11 and 12?

Some things recorded in Scripture were influenced by extracanonical sources. This is not a blanket endorsement of the complete source nor justification for making it canonical.

 

[thelaqachisnext]

Some things recorded in Scripture were influenced by extracanonical sources. This is not a blanket endorsement of the complete source nor justification for making it canonical.

When you say "Canon", you are speaking of that which men have agreed to call inspired -but men have differed.

I differ from anyone who calls the song of solomon inspired. It is not. It was written by a dirty minded old man who had too much time to think about belly buttons and breasts and teeth -illegally, for "a king must not multiply wives unto himself", says the Word of God, and solomon's heart turned away from the LORD, as 1 Kings 11 says.
1 Enoch was good enough for Jesus, Peter, James, Jude, John, Hannah, Job, Daniel, to read and quote from, as truth, and the point I am making is that the book refutes the entire doctrine of MAD, which was invented thousands of years after Enoch was written.

Okay godrulz, answer me this -if you can:
Where did the angels read the Scripture of Truth which they upheld the will of God from reading it and knowing His will, for Israel, which the angel showed Daniel what would befall his people, from, in Daniel 10:21 "But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and [there is] none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince?."

Next; where did Jesus read this, which the Wisdom of God said?
Luk 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and [some] of them they shall slay and persecute:

That is not from the OT; so where did Jesus quote what the Wisdom of God said, from?

Since the book of Job is older than Genesis, guess where Job and friends read the things they quoted? Where did Job find out about His Redeemer being "alive" who would stand on the earth in the "Last day", whom Job would see with his own resurrected eyes after his flesh was destroyed? -H-M-M?

Enoch wasn't a Jew, but through Noah is the ancestor of all nations, and he wrote his books for all his descendents, to teach them the Truth -which men knew, even Paul said, and changed to a lie.

He said the Messiah was to be a light to the Gentiles and the righteous would get garments of glory from Him, which were eternal life, and would be united with the Father and the Son, when the heavens and the earth were regenerated and made an eternal blessing.
That is not what the Jews leaders were believing by the Time Messiah came in human being flesh, for their eyes were blinded already, and babes and the just weaned ones were given sight, but the wise and prudent became blind.
Isaiah 28:9-16 [better read it with a good interlinear and concordance, as the translations are also a bit blinded from the truth] and Matthew 11:25-30, say so.

Mat 11:25-30 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes......

And Isaiah 29 speaks quite plainly that God hid the seers books from their understanding:

Isa 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered [hidden, concealed ].
Isa 29:11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which [men] deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it [is] sealed:
And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near [me] with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Isa 29:14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, [even] a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise [men] shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent [men] shall be hid.

 

[godrulz]

Song of songs is canonical. God is not prudish. It is a celebration of love, which includes sexuality. Consider cultural issues. Saying it was written by a dirty old man is a gross misunderstanding of the love song. Sex is not bad, in a godly context. Attraction is not sinful, within the right parameters.

Paul's reference to pagan poets does not make their writings divine revelation just because it is quoted in Scripture.