The Wonderful Dispensation of Grace

[Lighthouse]

Yes, I do.

 

[godrulz]

Sure, Lighthouse.

If you are MAD, do you agree with Bob Hill or Jerry Shugart about the Israelites?

Acts 15 is not a division between two NT gospels (Mid-Acts dispensational). It is an ecumenical council to deal with the false Judaizer gospel vs the true gospel of Peter and Paul based on the resurrection of Christ (grace).

 

[Damian]

I often post references to support things that people can look up. People do not need me to write out all verses every time. No one else does that.

No one else does that? Bob Hill provides both commentary and scriptural references.

 

[Damian]

Because of this separation by God, there are 2 spheres where believers go when they die. For the circumcision and proselytes, who believed before the Body of Christ began with the conversion of Saul/Paul, they go into the kingdom promised to David. Christ will be their king.

For anyone who believed in Christ as his savior after God raised up the Apostle Paul, he became a member of the body of Christ, according to this Dispensation of Grace. We are the ones who have a heavenly hope. Phi 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.

There are extremely important, major differences between our Dispensation of Grace and the Circumcision Dispensation. Works for salvation and water baptismal regeneration are two of the big differences between the circumcision gospel and the gospel that God gave to Paul. I’ll deal with these issues.

Bob,

Is there a differnce between the "Kingdom of God" and the "Kingdom of Heaven?"

Believers of the Dispensation of the Circumcision go to which kingdom?

Believers of the Dispensation of the Uncircumcision go to which kingdom?

In what chatper of Acts does the Dispensation of Grace officially begin? Acts 15?

Is there any overlap between the Dispensation of Grace and the Dispensation of the Circumcision?

Is it possible that there are simply two gospels - one for the circumcision and one for the uncircumcision? That is, is possible that a Jewish believer has different requirements right now for salvation than the Gentile believer?

 

[Clete]

I'm not Bob but I'd love to give these questions a stab!

Bob,

Is there a difference between the "Kingdom of God" and the "Kingdom of Heaven?"

There is no difference. God is the King of the Universe and all that is in it. These terms and others like it are used ubiquitously for any and all groups of people who are on God's side in the war between good and evil.

Believers of the Dispensation of the Circumcision go to which kingdom?

Israel has been promised an Earthly kingdom and that's exactly what they are going to get. First the 1000 year reign of Christ on this Earth and then the eternal Kingdom on the New Earth in the New Jerusalem.

Believers of the Dispensation of the Uncircumcision go to which kingdom?

The Body of Christ has a heavenly calling and so we will be with God in Heaven both during the Millennial reign and after the new heavens and earth are created, although I have little doubt there will be no small about of commuting back and forth.

In what chapter of Acts does the Dispensation of Grace officially begin? Acts 15?

Paul was the first saved by grace through faith plus nothing. This occurred in Acts 9.

Is there any overlap between the Dispensation of Grace and the Dispensation of the Circumcision?

Yes. The callings of God are irrevocable (Rom. 11:29) so those who had been called while the Dispensation of Circumcision was in force remained under than covenant until their physical death. This is why there was a need for the twelve to continue ministering to their converts. As long as the twelve and any of their converts were alive their dispensation remained in effect for them and so "overlapped" with the Dispensation of Grace. Understanding this single fact is the key to resolving virtually all doctrinal disputes without needing to twist the obvious meaning of the text of Scripture.

Is it possible that there are simply two gospels - one for the circumcision and one for the uncircumcision? That is, is possible that a Jewish believer has different requirements right now for salvation than the Gentile believer?

NO! Definitely not!

Remember what Paul said in Romans?...

Romans 11:30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.​

There is no longer any distinction between Jew and Gentile. This is a central theme of Paul's ministry.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[lightninboy]

Yes, I do.

Lighthouse, if you had read this thread you should have known that Bob Hill and Jerry Shugart do not agree about the eternal security of the Israelites under the Law.

Which side are you on?

 

[lightninboy]

Because of this separation by God, there are 2 spheres where believers go when they die. For the circumcision and proselytes, who believed before the Body of Christ began with the conversion of Saul/Paul, they go into the kingdom promised to David. Christ will be their king.

For anyone who believed in Christ as his savior after God raised up the Apostle Paul, he became a member of the body of Christ, according to this Dispensation of Grace. We are the ones who have a heavenly hope. Phi 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.

There are extremely important, major differences between our Dispensation of Grace and the Circumcision Dispensation. Works for salvation and water baptismal regeneration are two of the big differences between the circumcision gospel and the gospel that God gave to Paul. I’ll deal with these issues.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

The circumcision and proselytes who believed before the Body of Christ began with the conversion of Saul/Paul will live on the earth during the Millennium?

 

[lightninboy]

Paul was the first saved by grace through faith plus nothing. This occurred in Acts 9.

What about the thief on the cross?

Yes. The callings of God are irrevocable (Rom. 11:29) so those who had been called while the Dispensation of Circumcision was in force remained under than covenant until their physical death. This is why there was a need for the twelve to continue ministering to their converts. As long as the twelve and any of their converts were alive their dispensation remained in effect for them and so "overlapped" with the Dispensation of Grace.

Where is that spelled out clearly?

[/QUOTE] NO! Definitely not!
There is no longer any distinction between Jew and Gentile. This is a central theme of Paul's ministry. [/QUOTE]

After all the dividing the Word you’ve done to prove that there were two gospels, one might think that the contemporary Jews are still supposed to go by the gospel to the Circumcision.

 

[Damian]

Yes. The callings of God are irrevocable (Rom. 11:29) so those who had been called while the Dispensation of Circumcision was in force remained under than covenant until their physical death. This is why there was a need for the twelve to continue ministering to their converts. As long as the twelve and any of their converts were alive their dispensation remained in effect for them and so "overlapped" with the Dispensation of Grace. Understanding this single fact is the key to resolving virtually all doctrinal disputes without needing to twist the obvious meaning of the text of Scripture.

There is no longer any distinction between Jew and Gentile. This is a central theme of Paul's ministry.

I understand this.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved Romans 10:12, 13

16 ¶ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Romans 1:16

But on the other hand, there appears to be two gospels and both were being preached at the same time. This overlapping simply does not make logical sense. If Peter is the apostle to the circumcision then to whom are the espistles of Peter addressed? Jews, Gentiles, or both? Is it possible that there are still two different gospels in effect today, one for the Gentiles and the other for the Jews?

What do the Messianic Jews say about this matter? They seem to be rehashing something that I thought was resolved in Acts. But maybe it wasn't.

7 but contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

8 (for he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles) Galatians 2:7, 8

 

[lightninboy]

Here are some links to read. I am allowed to post links?

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache...to+the+circumcision&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=14
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache...to+the+circumcision&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=16
http://blog.togetherforthegospel.org/2006/04/ff_bruce_on_the.html
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/march99.htm
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache...+circumcision+differ&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=9
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache...circumcision+differ&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=42
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache...circumcision+differ&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=43
http://geocities.com/protestantscot/ttd/chapter11.html

 

[Clete]

Here are some links to read. I am allowed to post links?

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache...to+the+circumcision&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=14
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache...to+the+circumcision&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=16
http://blog.togetherforthegospel.org/2006/04/ff_bruce_on_the.html
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/march99.htm
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache...+circumcision+differ&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=9
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache...circumcision+differ&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=42
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache...circumcision+differ&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=43
http://geocities.com/protestantscot/ttd/chapter11.html

Dude! :sigh:

Look, can you take some advice from someone who doesn't know you well enough at all to have any ill intentions by offering it?

No one is going to read those links! That is, no one that doesn't already agree with your position is going to read those links. How boring is it to post nothing but a bunch of stuff that someone else wrote? Make the argument! Step out and stand on your own two feet and make the arguments that you yourself know. If you don't know them then don't make them until you do, or better yet, try to make them and fall on your face. If that happens you will not have failed, but only found out one way that the argument doesn't work. In any case, it's time to get rid of the crutches and walk on the strength of your own intellect. You don't need believerschapel.org to do the heavy lifting for you. Until you can make the arguments you don't know the arguments and until you make the arguments you aren't going to learn them and very few here, if any at all, are interested in having you let someone else argue your position for you. It's just boring and frankly, it's a bit lazy.

There's my two cents. I hope you'll take it in the manner in which it was intended.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

What about the thief on the cross?

You are not responsible to do that which you cannot do. This question of yours is a non-argument and intellectually dishonest.

Where is that spelled out clearly?

Romans 11:29 as I already cited.

After all the dividing the Word you’ve done to prove that there were two gospels, one might think that the contemporary Jews are still supposed to go by the gospel to the Circumcision.

And one might be wrong, as I just got through explaining. There is no longer any such thing as a Jew (or Gentile) except in the genealogical/biological sense. God will return to Israel again once the fullness of the Gentile has come it but until then their covenant is in abeyance.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[lightninboy]

Clete, dude,
Posting links is my style. It's handy for me to Google some good links and put them in the thread and I'll know where they are and others can read them too. And one of them happened to be a MAD point of view.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Dude! :sigh:

Look, can you take some advice from someone who doesn't know you well enough at all to have any ill intentions by offering it?

No one is going to read those links! That is, no one that doesn't already agree with your position is going to read those links. How boring is it to post nothing but a bunch of stuff that someone else wrote? Make the argument! Step out and stand on your own two feet and make the arguments that you yourself know. If you don't know them then don't make them until you do, or better yet, try to make them and fall on your face. If that happens you will not have failed, but only found out one way that the argument doesn't work. In any case, it's time to get rid of the crutches and walk on the strength of your own intellect. You don't need believerschapel.org to do the heavy lifting for you. Until you can make the arguments you don't know the arguments and until you make the arguments you aren't going to learn them and very few here, if any at all, are interested in having you let someone else argue your position for you. It's just boring and frankly, it's a bit lazy.

There's my two cents. I hope you'll take it in the manner in which it was intended.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete said it perfectly.

TOL is for dialog, not link dumping.

 

[lightninboy]

Okay, Knight, you're the boss. I'll put links in a document.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Okay, Knight, you're the boss. I'll put links in a document.

Just talk!

Have a dialog!

 

[lightninboy]

The circumcision and proselytes who believed before the Body of Christ began with the conversion of Saul/Paul will live on the earth during the Millennium?

Tell me about these reincarnated Israelites, Clete or Bob. Will they have earthly bodies or glorified bodies or what? Maybe Acts 2 Dispensationalism teaches the same thing, but I don't hear much about it.

 

[lightninboy]

You are not responsible to do that which you cannot do. This question of yours is a non-argument and intellectually dishonest.

Clete, if you have a rule that salvation must be by grace through faith plus works, you must stick to it absolutely.

Ha, if there ever was an illustration of grace, it was the story of the thief on the cross!

Google it and see!

 

[lightninboy]

A question for Bob and Clete:

What were the works in salvation by grace through faith plus works before circumcision and the Law?

 

[lightninboy]

For Bob Hill and Clete :

If salvation was proven to you to be actually by grace through faith plus nothing in all dispensations, would you still be MAD?

Does "the mystery" and "the gospel to the circumcision" necessarily mean that salvation by grace through faith plus nothing is only in the Wonderful Dispensation of Grace, and thus Jerry Shugart is whistling Dixie?