The Trinity

[Rosenritter]

Paul names Him at the beginning of the letter, and as you read through, you are to recognize that is who he is referring to. In fact, this isn't the only letter in which Paul uses the term "The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. I believe it would be somewhat redundant to have to use it every time, wouldn't you think?

2 Corinthians 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

2 Corinthians 11:31The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.​

1. The beginning of that letter also lacks the Trinitarian formula. Were Paul meaning to address three separate but equal persons, it would make sense that he should address all three. Rather, in practice it shows that he mixes terms with abandon. That's more compatible with an actual Oneness than a Trinity.

2. I think it could be very redundant to have to recite "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost" each time, especially if you assigned individual phrases to each one. The natural abbreviation would be to simply say God and leave it like that. But if one were to address God in a Trinity sense as persons, you should be addressing all three instead of ignoring one of them.

"God" is a vague term but it does have meaning. It's a title but not a name. "Father" and "Son" and "Holy Spirit" are names that are used by God that emphasize certain events and aspects that we can relate to, but these are not the only names he has used. Among these names are the Prince of Peace, the Lion of Judah, the Lamb of God, the Bread which came down from Heaven, the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the Sun of Righteousness, the Rock, and the bright and morning star.

I feel no need to create a model that has three, seven, or twelve different persons, one person with a different personality for each name. Old and New Testaments tell us there is one God. As there is no Trinity doctrine defined in scripture, I don't feel obliged to conform my understanding to that model.

But my point is that Paul (and the other writers) don't write like Trinitarians. They don't devote pages about "the sacred Trinity" and they don't invoke Trinitarian formulas when they address God. They don't feel it necessary to split their attention between "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost" so that no one gets left out. They don't write epistles about "The forgotten member of the Trinity." They are concerned that we recognize Jesus as Lord, and by Lord, they further specify that they mean LORD, as Creator God.

I would be content if we all spoke as the New Testament authors. We don't need to add more to that, and what we devise for our own understanding may have its own value, but we don't have precedent to force that upon others.

Spoiler

Trying to force more than that on people sometimes backfires. I think that some people deny Jesus as LORD because they are reacting against a Trinity that is short on biblical definition.

 

[glorydaz]

1. The beginning of that letter also lacks the Trinitarian formula. Were Paul meaning to address three separate but equal persons, it would make sense that he should address all three. Rather, in practice it shows that he mixes terms with abandon. That's more compatible with an actual Oneness than a Trinity.

2. I think it could be very redundant to have to recite "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost" each time, especially if you assigned individual phrases to each one. The natural abbreviation would be to simply say God and leave it like that. But if one were to address God in a Trinity sense as persons, you should be addressing all three instead of ignoring one of them.

"God" is a vague term but it does have meaning. It's a title but not a name. "Father" and "Son" and "Holy Spirit" are names that are used by God that emphasize certain events and aspects that we can relate to, but these are not the only names he has used. Among these names are the Prince of Peace, the Lion of Judah, the Lamb of God, the Bread which came down from Heaven, the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the Sun of Righteousness, the Rock, and the bright and morning star.

I feel no need to create a model that has three, seven, or twelve different persons, one person with a different personality for each name. Old and New Testaments tell us there is one God. As there is no Trinity doctrine defined in scripture, I don't feel obliged to conform my understanding to that model.

But my point is that Paul (and the other writers) don't write like Trinitarians. They don't devote pages about "the sacred Trinity" and they don't invoke Trinitarian formulas when they address God. They don't feel it necessary to split their attention between "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost" so that no one gets left out. They don't write epistles about "The forgotten member of the Trinity." They are concerned that we recognize Jesus as Lord, and by Lord, they further specify that they mean LORD, as Creator God.

I would be content if we all spoke as the New Testament authors. We don't need to add more to that, and what we devise for our own understanding may have its own value, but we don't have precedent to force that upon others.

Spoiler

Trying to force more than that on people sometimes backfires. I think that some people deny Jesus as LORD because they are reacting against a Trinity that is short on biblical definition.

Let them react against the Trinity. They deny Jesus as Lord God because they are not saved. Once they are saved, they're like Paul, they understand the Father, Son, and Spirit are ONE God. It isn't necessary to spell it out...it's a given.

What I see you doing is trying to understand God with your natural mind, and you'll never succeed in doing that. It's heart knowledge....not head knowledge.

 

[Rosenritter]

Let them react against the Trinity. They deny Jesus as Lord God because they are not saved. Once they are saved, they're like Paul, they understand the Father, Son, and Spirit are ONE God. It isn't necessary to spell it out...it's a given.

What I see you doing is trying to understand God with your natural mind, and you'll never succeed in doing that. It's heart knowledge....not head knowledge.

You are welcome to believe in your heart that God is metaphysically composed in however many persons you desire. I attempt to limit my imagination to what I see explicitly stated in scripture. 1 John 5:7 says that these three are one, not that the One is three, and I see much repeating that our Lord is one God. That's something that I'm not able to easily ignore, and I believe that repeated statements of scripture are given for a reason. Call that head knowledge if you like, but God gave us our head as well.

I would also say that Trinity makes less sense on the heart level. You and I aren't three persons, we certainly aren't made in a Trinitarian image and we would have nothing to relate to for a just comparison. We may be able to theorize and generalize that we are made of water, blood, and spirit, or fire, earth, and water, or head, hands, and feet, but these certainly aren't different persons.

On the heart level it makes far more sense that our Lord is actually One. Tertullian's Trinity had a Gnostic Father that felt no pain nor suffering and really didn't care about anything at all: to care, to have passion, was the ability to be hurt by his creation. This idea that God cannot be perfect if he has feeling has more in common with Greek philosophy than the God of the bible. Our God has emotion, feeling, and passion. The passion of the Christ was the passion of God. God didn't delegate someone else to save us from our sins, he did it himself. This unity makes more sense on a heart level as well.

One God doesn't lack support from either the head or the heart level. I don't desire to argue nor condemn. If you accept Jesus as Lord and God that's sufficient for me.

 

[glorydaz]

You are welcome to believe in your heart that God is metaphysically composed in however many persons you desire.

Thank God I have your permission. :chuckle:

I attempt to limit my imagination to what I see explicitly stated in scripture. 1 John 5:7 says that these three are one, not that the One is three, and I see much repeating that our Lord is one God. That's something that I'm not able to easily ignore, and I believe that repeated statements of scripture are given for a reason. Call that head knowledge if you like, but God gave us our head as well.

Oh, so "these three are one" is different than the "One is three"? :chuckle:

Theorize and Generalize and Imaginate all you want, but that's the natural man having his way, and I don't care to speculate with a natural man. I'm not the least bit perplexed by the make up of our Triune God, so I don't need to use my imagination. Feel free, though. I give you my permission.

Perhaps your heart will eventually set your head straight.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

He said that Jehovah, the Father, ANOINTED him with Jehovah's own spirit. Would Jehovah take Jesus' spirit and claim it as His own, to anoint Jesus with it?

Gt has no idea.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Absolutely yes when you do not believe in the Trinity.

What scripture says one must believe in the trinity?

 

[God's Truth]

Gt has no idea.

You believe a man became God. You have false beliefs.

 

[God's Truth]

What scripture says one must believe in the trinity?

The Bible says to add to you faith knowledge; it also warns to watch your doctrine closely and tells us some are ensnared by Satan to accuse the brethren and ensnared to preach falseness.

 

[God's Truth]

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

God is (a) spirit, not the spirit.
His express image, logos, is also a spirit.


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You are arguing about 'the' and 'a'.

There is only one divine Spirit. That is what the scriptures show us.

The scriptures plainly say ONE SPIRIT. You make three DIFFERENT Spirits.

Think about it more. Why do you make three different Spirits?

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called;

 

[God's Truth]

GT you have no idea what I have been posting.

That is a false statement from you, keypurr. I know exactly what you have been posting. You post publicly and I have been reading your posts for many years. You saying I have no idea is a dishonest and false statement; which, does not set up truthful worth on your side.

The logos is the express image of the Father, he is said to be the Son that God created all with. This son is a spirit, not a man.

See there, you just made two Sons. You made the Word a Son and Jesus the Man another Son.

The Word IS God and came as a Man.

You fail to see that the express image of a spirit would be a spirit.

God sent His own Spirit in the flesh.

In Hebrews 10 your told that a body was prepared for this spirit son. You are unable to see that Jesus is the body God prepared to hold this god like spirit.

No keypurr, God the Father IS Spirit and that Spirit came as a Man.

Your sure that you are right so you will never learn truth,

You describe yourself.

Are you sure you are right?

Tell the truth; did you describe yourself?

no matter what any one tells you you fail to open the door to your mind and see the content of the words as they are recorded in scrIpture.

hahahaha Jesus s the door, and I am saved. I watch my doctrine carefully.

I admire your support for your faith and I do not question your intent, but to be honest, you have no idea who God really is. But most others are in your same boat.

You sound like every other person in falseness. You all must insult to exalt yourselves.

There is only one true God, the Father. John 17:3.
Why do most folks just ignore what is in that verse?

There is only one God, and Jesus is that God come in the flesh.

 

[Bright Raven]

What scripture says one must believe in the trinity?

John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[Rosenritter]

Thank God I have your permission. :chuckle:



Oh, so "these three are one" is different than the "One is three"? :chuckle:

Theorize and Generalize and Imaginate all you want, but that's the natural man having his way, and I don't care to speculate with a natural man. I'm not the least bit perplexed by the make up of our Triune God, so I don't need to use my imagination. Feel free, though. I give you my permission.

Perhaps your heart will eventually set your head straight.

If you are able to show that the scripture both explicitly defines and teaches a Trinity, then you would would have room to claim that a "natural man" having his own speculation. Without scriptural authority, I am more inclined to understand "Trinity" as being a natural man's explanation. God given scripture says that God is one, and when we have multiple names of God used for different contexts, we are told that these are actually One.

Is "these three are one" different from "the One is three?" Under the normal rules of grammar, yes. The first part is what is being clarified, and the second part is the clarification and when in disagreement trumps any preconceptions about the former.

If you asked me how many sales I made, and I say that I made sales to the butcher shop, the florist, and the hair salon, and then clarified, "and these three are one" you know that the same person made the purchase for all three of his shops. But if I asked you how many delivered the newspaper, and you said "There is one newspaper delivery, but the delivery person is three" I'd know you meant that Tom, Dick, and Harry all delivered the newspaper for the same route, but only one paper and one person delivering at any one time.

That's the way we'd normally read the language. I'm sure God will explain things when we see him. Peace to all in the meantime then?

 

[Rosenritter]

John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

... which has absolutely no Trinity reference.

 

[glorydaz]

If you are able to show that the scripture both explicitly defines and teaches a Trinity, then you would would have room to claim that a "natural man" having his own speculation.

So, you refuse to accept Paul's claim that the God he is speaking of is the Father of Jesus Christ? Just because he doesn't say that in the verse you were given?

 

[keypurr]

That is a false statement from you, keypurr. I know exactly what you have been posting. You post publicly and I have been reading your posts for many years. You saying I have no idea is a dishonest and false statement; which, does not set up truthful worth on your side.


See there, you just made two Sons. You made the Word a Son and Jesus the Man another Son.

You just proved that you do not understand my thoughts

The Word IS God and came as a Man.

The WORD is the logos, the express image of the Father. This is what God sent to us, not himself. Heb 1

God sent His own Spirit in the flesh.

Nope, he sent his son.

No keypurr, God the Father IS Spirit and that Spirit came as a Man.

Yes, God is a spirit but it was his spirit son he sent.

You describe yourself.

Are you sure you are right?

Tell the truth; did you describe yourself?

I think we are all guilty of this GT.

hahahaha Jesus s the door, and I am saved. I watch my doctrine carefully.



You sound like every other person in falseness. You all must insult to exalt yourselves.



There is only one God, and Jesus is that God come in the flesh.

Say I think you are wrong is not insulting you, it is just saying I think your wrong. I do not doubt your love for who you think is God.

 

[patrick jane]

You just proved that you do not understand my thoughts




The WORD is the logos, the express image of the Father. This is what God sent to us, not himself. Heb 1




Nope, he sent his son.




Yes, God is a spirit but it was his spirit son he sent.




I think we are all guilty of this GT.




Say I think you are wrong is not insulting you, it is just saying I think your wrong. I do not doubt your love for who you think is God.

Do you deny that the Lord Jesus Christ is equal with God?

 

[keypurr]

John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

How does that show a Trinity???????

Your full of assumptions my friend.

 

[keypurr]

Do you deny that the Lord Jesus Christ is equal with God?

1Co_8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Who should I believe?

Mat_28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

ALL POWER was given to him by his God.


Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Who Exalted him? His God did.

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

The logos, express image is the spirit Son, the first to be created. See Col 1:15 above, he is a CREATURE.

 

[patrick jane]

1Co_8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Who should I believe?

Mat_28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

ALL POWER was given to him by his God.


Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Who Exalted him? His God did.

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

The logos, express image is the spirit Son, the first to be created. See Col 1:15 above, he is a CREATURE.

Philippians 2:6 NLT

 

[keypurr]

Philippians 2:6 NLT

How was he equal to his creator????

The Son is a creature not God.

He was given the fullness of his Father but he is just a creature.

He, however, is a godlike spirit, a form of God, not a man. He took the form of man in the body prepared for him.

No one is equal to the Father, he is the most high.

.


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