Rosenritter
New member
Jamie, can you help me out by selecting from the a-d choices? There are even "both" and "neither" choices provided.
The Trinity
- Thread starter Bright Raven
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Jamie, can you help me out by selecting from the a-d choices? There are even "both" and "neither" choices provided.
No anti-trinitarian argument on this thread suffices for what's inside this link right here:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm
Have fun with that :wave:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm
Have fun with that :wave:
a) Jesus gave up "being God" in the sense of giving up the full privileges and power (so that he might taste death for every man).
Rosenritter
New member
The trinity as a mystery
The Vatican Council has explained the meaning to be attributed to the term mystery in theology. It lays down that a mystery is a truth which we are not merely incapable of discovering apart from Divine Revelation, but which, even when revealed, remains "hidden by the veil of faith and enveloped, so to speak, by a kind of darkness" (Constitution, "De fide. cath.", iv). In other words, our understanding of it remains only partial, even after we have accepted it as part of the Divine message. Through analogies and types we can form a representative concept expressive of what is revealed, but we cannot attain that fuller knowledge which supposes that the various elements of the concept are clearly grasped and their reciprocal compatibility manifest. As regards the vindication of a mystery, the office of the natural reason is solely to show that it contains no intrinsic impossibility, that any objection urged against it on Reason. "Expressions such as these are undoubtedly the score that it violates the laws of thought is invalid. More than this it cannot do.
That's a little confusing. I'm not sure I read that right the first time. Doesn't seem like the best sales pitch...
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Rosenritter
New member
Thank you for your answer. Can you help out a little more please? In Genesis Israel is told "there is One God" and in the gospels Jesus says "there is One God" ... assuming that both of these statements are correct, are these talking about the same God? (using "God" in the way you just defined it above.)
The proof is there. There is a section which goes into heavy detail about the evidence in scripture. The 'mystery' is about understanding it after the fact, as it is something not found in nature and therefore can't be resolved through scientific reasoning.
Apple7
New member
Jesus is God based upon the established rules of Greek grammar, to begin with.
Apple7
New member
Adding the context that you purposefully left out...
But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeks such, the ones worshiping Him. God is spirit, and the ones worshiping Him must worship in spirit and truth.(John 4.23 - 24)
This proper worship is as a Triune entity:
• Father
• Son (Truth)
• Spirit
What the Greek tells us...
Heb 2.14
επει ουν τα παιδια κεκοινωνηκεν αιματος και σαρκος και αυτος παραπλησιως μετεσχεν των αυτων ινα δια του θανατου καταργηση τον το κρατος εχοντα του θανατου τουτ εστιν τον διαβολον
epei oun ta paidia kekoinōnēken haimatos kai sarkos kai autos paraplēsiōs meteschen tōn autōn hina dia tou thanatou katargēsē ton to kratos echonta tou thanatou tout' estin ton diabolon
Since, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, in like manner He Himself also shared the same things, that through death He might render entirely idle the one having the power of death, that is, the devil;
καταργηση = ‘katargēsē’
‘katargēsē’ definition:
Strong’s #G2673. Aorist tense verb, 3rd person singular. The Devil is to be reduced to inactivity through the death of Christ (Heb 2.14). The Epistle to the Hebrews fills out this declaration by stating that through the death of Christ even the one who has power over death, the devil, is condemned to inactivity or ineffectiveness in relation to the Christian (Heb 2.14). To cause something to come to an end or no longer in existence, abolish, wipe out, set aside. To render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative. To cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency. To deprive of force, influence, power. To cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish. To cease, to pass away, be done away. To be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one. To terminate all intercourse with one. to be (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively: - abolish, cease, cumber, deliver, destroy, do away, become (make) of no (none, without) effect, fail, loose, bring (come) to nought, put away (down), vanish away, make void. To cause something to be unproductive, use up, exhaust, waste. To cause something to lose its power or effectiveness, invalidate, make powerless. From #G2596 & #G691.
Strong’s #G2596. Down from.
Strong’s #G691. To be idle.
References:
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT), Gerhard Kittel, Gerhard Friedrich, & Geoffrey W. Bromiley, volume one, pp. 452 - 454
A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature, 3rd edition (BDAG), Frederick William Danker, pp. 525 - 526
Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Joseph H. Thayer, p. 336
The Complete Wordstudy Dictionary of the New Testament, Warren Baker, Warren Baker, based on the lexicons of Edward Robinson & John Parkhurst, pp. 841 - 842
The New Strong’s expanded exhaustive concordance of the Bible (red-letter edition), James Strong, LL.D., S.T.D., p. 133
So...
Clearly, Satan was rendered completely und utterly impotent at The Cross....aorist - completed action.
Satan has no power to possess anyone.
Satan was bound at The Cross.
Our battle is NOT with Satan...its with his demons which are still roaming freely across this planet.
keypurr
Well-known member
Correction, CHRIST became flesh. God sent his son to become flesh.
Rosenritter
New member
Not quite right Keypurr. Christ means Messiah means Savior. God became Christ would be more accurate.
Rosenritter
New member
Problem is Apple, that your evidence depends on one peculiar reading of one verse, even a verb tense at that, and multiple passages speak against your interpretation.
marhig
Well-known member
I didn't leave anything purposely out, I posted all that in an earlier post. Even in what you have quoted. There is nothing there about worshipping a trinity. It's worshipping the father IN spirit and in truth. Not worshipping the father worshipping the spirit and worshipping the truth. And Jesus clearly said for the father wants those to worship HIM, him the father, not them, he clearly mentions the father and worshipping HIM. You can't manipulate that. That's how it's written, and that's what Jesus said.
That's brilliant, that's makes it even clearer, thanks for translating that, so how did Jesus make the devil entirely idle? By denying him completely and not letting him into his heart. Look at when the devil went before God, he had been to and fro upon the earth to see whom he can devour. And God said, have you considered my servant Job, the devil hates being idle, he wants to devour Gods people, but God knew Jobs heart and he knew that Satan had no chance because Job loved God more than his own life. And he knew Satan had no chance with Jesus at all, because God came first with Jesus and he was here to do the will of the father and not live by his own will. And Satan never got into Jesus one iota because Jesus had nothing of this world in him, so Jesus made him entirely idle as he couldn't touch him, he was too strong for Satan and he destroyed the power of death in his flesh, Satan has the power of death, he makes people desolate and dead to God, but Jesus overcame Satan and this world bringing us the chance of life in the living God through him, and if we believe and have faith by the grace of God we will overcome Satan too, through Christ.
As Jesus said, have no fear, for I have overcome the world.
And our lord Jesus Christ can strengthen us when we are tempted, because he has been tempted in all points as we are, but he never sinned and he can give us the strength to overcome Satan. What a heart for God and what an example he left, what a love he showed, and he will transform our heart to be like his, and give us the power to overcome through the spirit, if through love, we follow him deny our flesh, bare our cross and obey the living God.
Well we know that the natural death of Christ didn't stop the devil being active because his works are in everyone who is of this world, including partly in us if we let him in! But he was inactive in Jesus because he was dead to his flesh, and being dead to his flesh he destroyed the power of Satan in his flesh leaving us a perfect example to follow in a new and living way! And with his life in our hearts, he can cast out the devil, give us the strength to overcome and make the devil inactive in us too through the spirit! As he said, have no fear, I have overcome the world.
Satan only has no power to possess any of God's true people, because we are being saved by the spirit daily, giving us the strength to deny him. Satan is in the hearts of those of this world and his strength comes through the lusts of the flesh. And the only way we let him in is through our lusts, they have to go and be replaced by the love of God, then we will lay down our life for others, with the hope of bringing them to God through Christ.
Satan is the evil one who is over those evil spirits, but he has no hope with us, if we are truly Christ's and we are following him with love in our hearts. Because the love of God conquers sin and Satan, and Jesus was in the express image of God through the fullness of the spirit and he denied his own will to do God's will. Thus he is way he is the life and he is the truth and he bore witness to the truth to show us that way back to God through love. So if he is within our hearts, then we will be alive in God and dying daily to sin, thus sin will be being put to death in our hearts every day, making Satan idle, inactive, and hopefully through the strength of the spirit entirely dead through Christ Jesus.
And we must endure to the end to be saved! As Jesus himself said!
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Apple7
New member
A deeper meaning is...'one who is set apart'...
Apple7
New member
That the Greek verb is in the completed action, and the definition of complete and utter impotency with regard to Satan, is easily verifiable by the lexicons.
This is just the tip of the iceberg for those that wish to look.
You, however, don't seem to be very motivated in the study of the original languages - thus, you will forever be eating others' dust...
Apple7
New member
You quoted the verse out of context.
Context that shows the Trinity formula.
The Trinity Formula is laid out in the context shown.
God...which is Father, Son and Spirit.
3 Persons; 1 Being.
The only reason we can come to the knowledge of Jesus Christ today, is because Satan is presently bound.
There are no scriptural accounts of Satan possessing anyone after The Cross.
There are, however, numerous accounts of demons possessing people after The Cross.
Scripture informs the reader that while Satan is bound at present, his only 'power' is that of the demons, as he, himself, cannot make a personal appearance.
Give thanks to God that Satan is bound today!
Rosenritter
New member
How many scriptural accounts do you have of Satan specifically possessing anyone Apple? Your logic is a little biased.
And what if I take your single example and argue as you do that it really means a demon instead?
Apple7
New member
All accounts of Satan freely roaming the earth and taking direct possession of people, occur before The Cross.
There are none afterward.
Please do....but, you won't...
keypurr
Well-known member
I disagree that God came as Christ. God sent his son. Your tied to the misunderstandings of the church. Christ is the son of God not God.
Sent from my SM-T330NU using TheologyOnline mobile app
Keypurr told me that secretly he believes in the Trinity -