The Trinity

[Rosenritter]

No, God is NOT an actor (like your Harrison Ford).

When the Son of God spoke to His Father He was NOT pretending.

So YES, it is a very dangerous idea to conceive God is a WAY that God has NOT shown Himself to be.

The "role playing god" is the man-made version and NOT the Biblical version.

As I understand your reply, you reject God in his role as Sacrifice for Sin, the Mediator between God and Man, and the Returning King of Kings. I asked if you thought that was a "dangerous idea" and you replied most insistently "yes."

Good luck with your "biblical" version of God that doesn't encompass those roles.

 

[Rosenritter]

I understand the gospel of the grace of God of which you have no clue.

Rom 5:17-21 (AKJV/PCE)​

(5:17) For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) (5:18) Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. (5:19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. (5:20) Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: (5:21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. ​

The righteousness and obedience of ONE is how the Body of Christ is saved. You should join, but you think that you are something special and will not humble yourself enough to be saved by grace through faith and that not of yourself.

Eph 2:8-9 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: (2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast. ​

If you fully understood the gospel of Grace, I do not think you would object so strongly when someone says that we must have obedience to God.

2 John 1:5-6 KJV
(5) And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
(6) And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Revelation 12:17 KJV
(17) And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12 KJV
(12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 22:13-14 KJV
(13) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Please just hurry up and agree with GT; he's not wrong to say that Jesus requires obedience and that's not even being controversial. Maybe he will be wrong on something else and you can attack him on that instead. In the meantime, would you like to see what happens to someone who was forgiven of their sins (saved) and then is disobedient against the commandment of love? Brace yourself:

Matthew 18:32-35 KJV
(32) Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
(33) Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
(34) And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
(35) So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Obedience to God includes Love Thy God, and Love They God encompasses Love Thy Neighbor.

 

[Right Divider]

Those scriptures do not say what you want it to say.

The Bible is clear and simple, so simple that a child can understand it.

But your pride blinds you.

 

[Right Divider]

As I understand your reply, you reject God in his role as Sacrifice for Sin, the Mediator between God and Man, and the Returning King of Kings. I asked if you thought that was a "dangerous idea" and you replied most insistently "yes."

That fact that you don't agree with what the Bible says is your problem.

The Son of God (who IS GOD), died for my sin. It was not God acting like Harrison Ford.

Good luck with your "biblical" version of God that doesn't encompass those roles.

No luck needed. I simply accept God's Word just the way He wrote it.

 

[Right Divider]

If you fully understood the gospel of Grace, I do not think you would object so strongly when someone says that we must have obedience to God.

2 John 1:5-6 KJV
(5) And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
(6) And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Revelation 12:17 KJV
(17) And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12 KJV
(12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 22:13-14 KJV
(13) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Please just hurry up and agree with GT; he's not wrong to say that Jesus requires obedience and that's not even being controversial. Maybe he will be wrong on something else and you can attack him on that instead. In the meantime, would you like to see what happens to someone who was forgiven of their sins (saved) and then is disobedient against the commandment of love? Brace yourself:

Matthew 18:32-35 KJV
(32) Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
(33) Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
(34) And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
(35) So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Obedience to God includes Love Thy God, and Love They God encompasses Love Thy Neighbor.

So you TOO do not understand the gospel of the grace of God. Got it.

P.S. GT is a she.

 

[keypurr]

"I didn't hit him officer, my hand did!" Sounds like equivocation. For the sake of argument let us say God was responsible.

Can you address the thrust of my question please? Why was possession necessary in this case and not in others? And what happened to the Jesus that was born to Mary after he became possessed?

Not being YHWH, I would think that the spirit that Jesus had before he was anointed was still in him. But the spirit he received took over. The express image was used for the creation. He is a form of God, Phil 2, godlike, powerful, full of knowledge. So much of a change in Jesus that he needed to go into the wilderness to adjust. It was then that he was tempted. God can not be tempted but Jesus was. Do you question that fact. Kind of destroys your Trinity doesn't it?

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[keypurr]

Jesus Christ is the Incarnate Word -

Define for me your understanding of the word Incarnate in this verse.

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[keypurr]

That fact that you don't agree with what the Bible says is your problem.

The Son of God (who IS GOD), died for my sin. It was not God acting like Harrison Ford.


No luck needed. I simply accept God's Word just the way He wrote it.

Your God is weak, my God can not die.
His son did and could for he is a creation.

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[Bright Raven]

Your God is weak, my God can not die.
His son did and could for he is a creation.

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Did Jesus ever spiritually die? His humanity died, His spirituality didn't

 

[Right Divider]

Your God is weak, my God can not die.

The Son of God did not die IN HIS DEITY, only in His humanity.

But what would an unbeliever like you know? Absolutely nothing.

Zech 14:3-4 (AKJV/PCE)​

(14:3) Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. (14:4) ¶ And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
​

Do you know who the LORD is? Apparently not.

P.S. LORD is this:

H3068 יְהוָה Yhvah (yeh-vaw') n/p.​

יְהוָֹה Yhovah (yeh-ho-vaw') ​

יְהוֹ Yhow (yeh-ho') [as a prefix]​

1. (meaning) the self-Existent or Eternal, the I AM.​

2. (person) Yahweh (Yehvah), Jewish national name of God.​

3. (anglicized) Jehovah.​

4. (as a name prefix) Yeho-.​

5. (As expressed in Hebraic Koine Greek) ἐγώ εἰμί, I AM (literally: I myself, I am).​

[from H1961]​

KJV: Jehovah, the Lord. ​

Root(s): H1961 ​

Compare: H3050, H3069 ​

See also: G1510 ​

 

[Rosenritter]

Your God is weak, my God can not die.
His son did and could for he is a creation.

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My God can die as many times as he wants, and still come back to life. Now that's power.

 

[Rosenritter]

Not being YHWH, I would think that the spirit that Jesus had before he was anointed was still in him. But the spirit he received took over. The express image was used for the creation. He is a form of God, Phil 2, godlike, powerful, full of knowledge. So much of a change in Jesus that he needed to go into the wilderness to adjust. It was then that he was tempted. God can not be tempted but Jesus was. Do you question that fact. Kind of destroys your Trinity doesn't it?

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First, thank you for your answer... but I'm still not sure on what it means for "the spirit he received took over." Was it still "him?" Did he have his own free will and was just aided by this created godlike spirit? Or did it completely take over and allow Jesus to watch like a spectator, or only "take control" at critical points or whenever Jesus might do something wrong?

Second, God can be tempted. It is not written, "Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah?" Jesus quoted that passage from Deuteronomy 6:16 when he answered the devil in the wilderness (see Matthew 4:7).

So I have another question here for you, off of point two. If I were to speak to God, and say "Hey, would you let me off the hook if I bribe you with this fifty dollars?" ... did I just destroy God like Captain Kirk vs. an alien intelligence that explodes in paradox? After all, I just tempted God. Let's treat that question as rhetorical, and I'll get to the real question. Of course that doesn't destroy God. When you tempt God it doesn't make him not God. The passage in James that you are thinking of means "God cannot be successfully tempted with evil" not that someone attempting to tempt him destroys his Godhood.

So the question, was Jesus successfully tempted with evil? If yes, then I will agree that he was not God. If no, then perhaps there was something wrong with your proof, as it requires that Deuteronomy 6:16 be set aside (as well as the common sense thought experiment above) for it to function. The proof was a word trick gone bad, no hard feelings, just set it aside and we can move to better questions (I admit there are better questions.)

Point and question three, what do you mean by "Kind of destroys my Trinity?" Please show me any place on this board where I have declared allegiance to a Trinity, or said anything inconsistent with "I believe the Bible is sufficient and it does not speak of a Trinity." Have you not noticed that I have been attacked for the past week because of that? I am not asking you to believe anything because it is "orthodox" or "written in the creeds" or "Trinity." I ask you (that is, anyone) to believe because of what is written in scripture.

Let's hop back to Jesus in the wilderness once more. Jesus is in the Wilderness, and Satan questions whether he is really the Son of God. So he tries to tempt him. How does Jesus rebuke him for trying to tempt him?

Matthew 4:7 KJV
(7) Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

See, that can also be read in this way, "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God, I am the Lord thy God." Actually, all of Christ's answers to the devil follow that pattern. Watch closely:

"make these stones bread!" ... answered with, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Jesus was the Word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God, he also said that he was the bread that came down from heaven.

"bow down and worship me" ... answered with "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." Jesus is the Lord God, Satan should rather worship him. Jesus did not worship anyone else, there is no reference in scripture that says Jesus ever worships, but Jesus did allow, permit, and encourage others to worship him. The angels and apostles never allowed themselves to be worshiped.

Hebrews 1:6 KJV
(6) And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

If we believe Jesus that one should only worship the Lord thy God, then how come he accepted worship from others, and how come it is written that the angels of God worship him? That's not Trinity, that's just scripture. Sorry for getting carried away, I really did just mean to ask about the spirit-takeover thing, got a little riled with being called "Trinity" after suffering abuse for the opposite.

 

[keypurr]

Did Jesus ever spiritually die? His humanity died, His spirituality didn't

Did he not send his spirit back to God as he died?

I suspect that the express image went back to God but the spirit that Jesus was born with did not.
But to be honest I have not given it much thought friend.

 

[keypurr]

My God can die as many times as he wants, and still come back to life. Now that's power.

Disagree, if your God died, he died. Your God is a man made God.
Your God is the express IMAGE of the Father, all images are CREATIONS, not God.
Can you show me ANY image that is not a creation?


2Co_1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

Eph_1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

1Pe_1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Your God has a God. There is only one true God.

 

[keypurr]

First, thank you for your answer... but I'm still not sure on what it means for "the spirit he received took over." Was it still "him?" Did he have his own free will and was just aided by this created godlike spirit? Or did it completely take over and allow Jesus to watch like a spectator, or only "take control" at critical points or whenever Jesus might do something wrong?

I have given my opinion of that.

Second, God can be tempted. It is not written, "Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah?" Jesus quoted that passage from Deuteronomy 6:16 when he answered the devil in the wilderness (see Matthew 4:7).

So I have another question here for you, off of point two. If I were to speak to God, and say "Hey, would you let me off the hook if I bribe you with this fifty dollars?" ... did I just destroy God like Captain Kirk vs. an alien intelligence that explodes in paradox? After all, I just tempted God. Let's treat that question as rhetorical, and I'll get to the real question. Of course that doesn't destroy God. When you tempt God it doesn't make him not God. The passage in James that you are thinking of means "God cannot be successfully tempted with evil" not that someone attempting to tempt him destroys his Godhood.

So the question, was Jesus successfully tempted with evil? If yes, then I will agree that he was not God. If no, then perhaps there was something wrong with your proof, as it requires that Deuteronomy 6:16 be set aside (as well as the common sense thought experiment above) for it to function. The proof was a word trick gone bad, no hard feelings, just set it aside and we can move to better questions (I admit there are better questions.)

Jesus said in the Aramatic translation that "Thou shall not test Master YHWH your Elohim. That is not Y'shua.

Point and question three, what do you mean by "Kind of destroys my Trinity?" Please show me any place on this board where I have declared allegiance to a Trinity, or said anything inconsistent with "I believe the Bible is sufficient and it does not speak of a Trinity." Have you not noticed that I have been attacked for the past week because of that? I am not asking you to believe anything because it is "orthodox" or "written in the creeds" or "Trinity." I ask you (that is, anyone) to believe because of what is written in scripture.

I apologize for mistaken you for a Trin, I admit my memory failures friend.

Let's hop back to Jesus in the wilderness once more. Jesus is in the Wilderness, and Satan questions whether he is really the Son of God. So he tries to tempt him. How does Jesus rebuke him for trying to tempt him?

Matthew 4:7 KJV
(7) Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

See, that can also be read in this way, "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God, I am the Lord thy God." Actually, all of Christ's answers to the devil follow that pattern. Watch closely:

"make these stones bread!" ... answered with, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Jesus was the Word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God, he also said that he was the bread that came down from heaven.

"bow down and worship me" ... answered with "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." Jesus is the Lord God, Satan should rather worship him. Jesus did not worship anyone else, there is no reference in scripture that says Jesus ever worships, but Jesus did allow, permit, and encourage others to worship him. The angels and apostles never allowed themselves to be worshiped.

Answered above.

Hebrews 1:6 KJV
(6) And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

If we believe Jesus that one should only worship the Lord thy God, then how come he accepted worship from others, and how come it is written that the angels of God worship him? That's not Trinity, that's just scripture. Sorry for getting carried away, I really did just mean to ask about the spirit-takeover thing, got a little riled with being called "Trinity" after suffering abuse for the opposite.

Jesus was born as the savior, the Lamb. At age thirty the spirit son entered him and God declared that this was his son. That is when he became the Christ.

Your getting away form the subject matter.

You tell me what you see in these verses.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

This proves that Jesus was the body that the spiritual son dwelled in. You seem to not understand that a man can have and be controlled by other spirits.

 

[Rosenritter]

I have given my opinion of that.



Jesus said in the Aramatic translation that "Thou shall not test Master YHWH your Elohim. That is not Y'shua.



I apologize for mistaken you for a Trin, I admit my memory failures friend.



Answered above.




Jesus was born as the savior, the Lamb. At age thirty the spirit son entered him and God declared that this was his son. That is when he became the Christ.

Your getting away form the subject matter.

You tell me what you see in these verses.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

This proves that Jesus was the body that the spiritual son dwelled in. You seem to not understand that a man can have and be controlled by other spirits.

"A body thou hast prepared me" also works naturally with "age zero" and does not require "age thirty."

That's not a proof if the same passage can also be read in one or more additional ways. Its merely supportive... Of more than one interpretation in such a case. With that standard one also can "prove" anything actually.

Here's a problem: if Christ was the Passover lamb, and was to be a sacrifice, didn't he say he gave his life willingly? As you propose he didn't, but he rather kidnapped someone else and gave their life for them. So not only does it sound unnatural and strange but it fights against the gospel message.

I didn't see you answer the issue of worship. As Jesus answered the devil, thou shalt only worship the Lord God. Jesus accepts worship. Ergo, either he is the Lord God or he is blasphemous. That and at least a dozen other problems arise if one tries to exclude Jesus as God. Everything and every place that God is supposed to be became Jesus.

 

[Rosenritter]

Disagree, if your God died, he died. Your God is a man made God.
Your God is the express IMAGE of the Father, all images are CREATIONS, not God.
Can you show me ANY image that is not a creation?


2Co_1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

Eph_1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

1Pe_1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Your God has a God. There is only one true God.

"Rosenritter" is the express image of myself, and although "an account thou hast prepared me" it's still me. Just not me in my full power and glory. Rosenritter is not my creation, it IS me. At least to the extent that the TOL world can contain me.

 

[daqq]

I didn't see you answer the issue of worship. As Jesus answered the devil, thou shalt only worship the Lord God. Jesus accepts worship. Ergo, either he is the Lord God or he is blasphemous. That and at least a dozen other problems arise if one tries to exclude Jesus as God. Everything and every place that God is supposed to be became Jesus.

The answer of worship can be answered but really should have its own thread because no doubt, (if one is willing to be honest with the texts), every place where you think Yeshua "accepts worship" is a misunderstanding.

 

[Rosenritter]

The answer of worship can be answered but really should have its own thread because no doubt, (if one is willing to be honest with the texts), every place where you think Yeshua "accepts worship" is a misunderstanding.

The problem with that explanation is that it is inconsistent with the rest of scripture, when apostles and angels were bowed down to and "worshiped" they all protested and said "I am a man" or "I am a fellow servant." They seemed pretty anxious to stop it if it was only something harmless. But it is not just one thing, there are dozens of intersecting lines that all point to the same thing.

Luke 8:24-25 KJV
(24) And they came to him, and awoke him, saying, Master, master, we perish. Then he arose, and rebuked the wind and the raging of the water: and they ceased, and there was a calm.
(25) And he said unto them, Where is your faith? And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another, What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him.



Psalms 107:28-30 KJV
(28) Then they cry unto the LORD in their trouble, and he bringeth them out of their distresses.
(29) He maketh the storm a calm, so that the waves thereof are still.
(30) Then are they glad because they be quiet; so he bringeth them unto their desired haven.

Most everything Jesus did had a reason. He made the lame to walk and the blind to see, and it was predicated by the scripture. When his disciples wondered "what manner of man is this" their answer was in the Psalm already. Jesus did not stop to pray for the storm to be lifted, he just DID it. If he had prayed and asked for someone else to stop the storm, would his disciples have been so amazed, or would they have acknowledged an answered prayer?


Isaiah 44:6 KJV
(6) Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.


Revelation 1:17-18 KJV
(17) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
(18) I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

That title is repeated three times in Isaiah, each and every time to identify the LORD God Almighty. It is not used in any other sense. It reappears at the end of recorded scripture, four times in Revelation (a total of seven times in all.) In Revelation the one who calls himself "the first and the last" twice identifies himself as he who was dead, and finally calls himself by name. And the name by which he now makes himself known is Jesus: "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last .... I Jesus..." (Revelation 22:13,16)

 

[Rosenritter]

@ Keypurr,

If "Jesus" is a created spirit-son, and there was a different Jesus who was born of Mary, then which one is speaking in Revelation? The human or the created spirit? Because in that context I just noticed this:

Revelation 22:13-16 KJV
(13) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
(16) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

How can a created spirit son be the root and offspring of David, if it merely possessed the body of someone who was the root and offspring of David? That seems like a strange thing to say, or at least a strange way to say it, if that were indeed the context. Wouldn't "I am the offspring of the Lord, he who took the body of Jesus?" or something to that effect be more appropriate?