The Timelessness of God

[Tambora]

So God ordains people to eternal life despite not knowing who those people are?

Let me ask this .....
Why would GOD even need to know the exact names.

I didn't know who would show up at my Wedding party, but they all got what was promised.

 

[Right Divider]

Let me ask this .....
Why would GOD even need to know the exact names.

I didn't know who would show up at my Wedding party, but they all got what was promised.

He does not need anything. But do you think that there is something that He does not know?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I understand that Israel will be restored.
I don't even have to be alive when that happens, so I don't have to experience it at all to know it will happen in the future.

Do you have an "understanding" concerning the environment which we will enter when we enter heaven?

Please tell me what the environment will be like when I arrive there.

Thanks!

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Logical calculations of evaluation of the subject.

You can have an idea to build a house. That's your plan for the future.
You calculate and evaluate to think of every possible scenario that could get that done.
That's using logic, and to make that plan does not require any 'timelessness' at all.

Since GOD's logic is far superior to ours, there is no scenario that GOD has not thought of and planned for (calculated and evaluated) in advance to get 'er done.
I don't think there is any situation that GOD cannot work around to get His plan done.
If He closes slams shut, He can open another.


A question that must be addressed is:
Is it impossible for GOD to get 'er done without the use of timelessness?

1st Peter 1:20

And.. my mere conjecture... We saw that play out in Jesus. God was bound to time, but dependent on The Father who is timeless... hypothesizing now...

And... He arose the Victor of the scenario.

So.. in a sense... the answer is "no".

But... again...

Argument for the devil's advocate...

To say God couldn't choose to be limited in anything would be a limit.

 

[Tambora]

Do you have an "understanding" concerning the environment which we will enter when we enter heaven?

Please tell me what the environment will be like when I arrive there.

Thanks!

It is my understanding that it will be without sinners.
I know because I have calculated and evaluated scripture and therefore logically conclude that it won't be otherwise.


And thank you too, for providing this thread for some mindful discussion by whosoever shows up.
Especially knowing that I do not believe time is a created thing and therefore we both are at an impasse from the get go.
I don't intend to change anyone's mind, but just to show that there is more than one way to look at this.
To me, 'timelessness' is an unnecessary theory to begin with.
I believe GOD can fulfill His plan completely within time by doing it sequential.
I believe that GOD can accomplish His plan no matter what scenario arises, because He has already evaluated every possible scenario and has calculated how the plan can continue even if man causes a snag.


Let's take the example of Cyrus.
GOD called him by name and told what he would do, years before Cyrus was even born.
No 'timelessness' was needed to do that.
Even the slightest whisper of GOD into the ear of the parent to name him Cyrus would have done the trick.
GOD did not need timelessness to accomplish His plan that a man named Cyrus would do what was foretold.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

So God ordains people to eternal life despite not knowing who those people are?

Your question broaches a nice theological Segway.

This brings up the core reason Open theology and Calvinism are diametrically apposed. The issue that shapes the theology is "Salvation".

Calvinism sticks with the limitless God theory, but jumps to a doctrine of election that ensures salvational peace, "if" your a lucky one. It has to trash freewill to justify our sin and maintain election. Replacement theology comes in here too.

Open Theology states God limits His foreknowledge to maintain freewill and stabilize the two convenants and the impact of Christ on our salvation.

The issue with Calvinism is that it attributes Evil to God by maintaining His Omnipresent, Omniscience, and asserting that by foreknowledge, God predestined the "elect" to glory and "fully fashioned the wicked". Much theological wordplay and scripture Yahtzee occurs to make it fit. But, yes and no logic reveals the bottom line.

Open view theology removes God's hand in evil by making Him "blind" to what is going to happen next. This restores God's righteousness, but still depleats God's place in Omniscience implied through scripture.

I clearly prefer one over the other... but...

I go a different path and say that God elected Himself to Die out of Love for us and the obvious provision of free will to allow Love to be genuine. His death and planning demonstrates His Love for us in creating us with free will and following through by standing in our deserved place for our abuse of it.

This is how I maintain the idea of Omniscience in tandom with Free Will, Justice and Love.

... now to catch up on each of your awesome expressions.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Open Theology states God limits His foreknowledge to maintain freewill and stabilize the two convenants and the impact of Christ on our salvation.

I believe in Open theology but I maintain that He knows everything and there is nothing which He doesn't know. Here is what I believe:

"Much of the difficulty in regard to the doctrine of Predestination is due to the finite character of our mind, which can grasp only a few details at a time, and which understands only a part of the relations between these. We are creatures of time, and often fail to take into consideration the fact that God is not limited as we are. That which appears to us as 'past,' 'present,' and 'future,' is all 'present' to His mind. It is an eternal 'now'...Just as He sees at one glance a road leading from New York to San Francisco, while we see only a small portion of it as we pass over it, so He sees all events in history, past, present, and future at one glance" (Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination [Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1932]).​

I believe that the LORD exists in the ever present "now" where there is no "before" or "after." So therefore, when the Scriptures speak of the "foreknowledge of God" it is not to be understood in a literal sense.

With this view in mind we can understand that no one's future is determined before hand with the LORD. No one is chosen for salvation until the time when they believe.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Let me ask this .....
Why would GOD even need to know the exact names.

I didn't know who would show up at my Wedding party, but they all got what was promised.

I got caught in the crossfire of an Athiest and a Ultra-Superdee-Duper-Damaging to the gospel Christian "discussion" about... abortion.

This was in context of the Christian side tracked by the atheist through the bait.

.... hang in there, this is a response. Honest.

The bottom line is the Athiest asserted God was a jerk and asked... "Do aborted babies end up in hell?"

The Christian replied... "No.. their innocent.. they're saved."

The Athiest asserted that abortion = salvation. Almost game over, but...

I then surmised with conjuncture that every created human is already known as a full soul. I suggested that God could instantaneously understand a souls true polarization towards Love or Hate. I said... "God can picture a soul as if it spanned 1,000,000 years of life in an instant and thus know even the true nature of an aborted soul. Thus, wicked or righteous and capable of faith.

God desired that soul to experience life, but humanity utilized free will to cut it short."

Humanities acts of destruction do not impede God's creation. Christ's demonstration of Love has reshaped our very society, whether people believe or not.

Thus... God's direct influence at specific points of history set the healthiest stage for our current, chaotic, age, but refrains from impeding a souls freewill.

Locking a girl up in a fancy home and demanding that she Love her "host" can never yield true Love. Even if True Love grew from this, it would have to manifest of the girl's freewill.

Anything else would be Stockholm syndrome. This is not the nature of God's design. He desires sincerity and mercy over false obedience and condemnation. Clearly the stage has been set for The Bride Groom to embrace His Bride, while being assured her Love is Sincere.

# All Conjecture

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I believe in Open theology but I maintain that He knows everything and there is nothing which He doesn't know. Here is what I believe:

"Much of the difficulty in regard to the doctrine of Predestination is due to the finite character of our mind, which can grasp only a few details at a time, and which understands only a part of the relations between these. We are creatures of time, and often fail to take into consideration the fact that God is not limited as we are. That which appears to us as 'past,' 'present,' and 'future,' is all 'present' to His mind. It is an eternal 'now'...Just as He sees at one glance a road leading from New York to San Francisco, while we see only a small portion of it as we pass over it, so He sees all events in history, past, present, and future at one glance" (Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination [Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1932]).​

I believe that the LORD exists in the ever present "now" where there is no "before" or "after." So therefore, when the Scriptures speak of the "foreknowledge of God" it is not to be understood in a literal sense.

With this view in mind we can understand that no one's future is determined before hand with the LORD. No one is chosen for salvation until the time when they believe.

Amen...

And thank you for providing a Christ Centric expression of Open Theology. This is most beneficial in understanding perspective that many speak from.

God bless you.

 

[Tambora]

He does not need anything. But do you think that there is something that He does not know?

I believe GOD knows everything knowable.

For an analogy:
GOD cannot know Superman personally because Superman is just a made up cartoon idea and is not a created being.
He only exists as an idea in our minds, but is not a real being.
So we can know OF the idea Superman, but we will never experience Superman as a being of creation.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Amen...

And thank you for providing a Christ Centric expression of Open Theology. This is most beneficial in understanding perspective that many speak from.

God bless you.

If I was to reveal my personal cards, I'm certain I would be an "Open Theology and Mid Acts Dispensational mutt, with tangent assertions gleaned from experiential influence and the sheer carving of my stone being with the water of the Holy Spirit and the "tender" breaking and rebuilding of God's corrective Hand.

: )

But genuinely,

I'm a theological drifter that is anchored to Christ Crucified and the Promises of all scripture.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

The argument is based on an unsubstantiated premise...

"they cannot even know things which will happen in the future"

You have no means to substantiate this claim and thus your argument fails - irreparably.


Further, the idea of existence outside of time is itself a contradiction. In fact, by positing the notion of timeless existence you are committing a stolen concept fallacy.

Time is not a thing. It is an idea. Time is a concept used to convey information about the duration and sequence of events.

One's existence is itself an event that must, by definition, have duration. Thus to discuss timeless existence is to accept the concept of existence while rejecting the concept of duration! You are "stealing" the concept of existence. You are in effect accepting and rejecting it at the same time. Thus you cannot even bring up the idea of timeless existence without contradicting yourself. Therefore, God is not timeless because of the rational impossibility of the contrary.

There you go. I've both irreparably undermined your argument and proven your position to be rationally impossible.


Here's my prediction of the future...

Jerry Shugart will not be moved one inch off his position by either argument.

Stubbornness is one of the most common traits of the Patriarchs and Prophets.

: )

 

[Right Divider]

I believe GOD knows everything knowable.

So you think that there are some things "unknowable" to God?

For an analogy:
GOD cannot know Superman personally because Superman is just a made up cartoon idea and is not a created being.
He only exists as an idea in our minds, but is not a real being.
So we can know OF the idea Superman, but we will never experience Superman as a being of creation.

That's a terrible analogy and fails to support anything about time and future events known to God.

Do you believe that God can be all places at the same time?

Then why can't God be at all "times" as well? Time and space are inseparable.

When the Bible declares God to be eternal, it is saying that He has always existed and is not aging.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

The potter and the clay.

Jeremiah 18:1-18 KJV
(1) The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
(2) Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
(3) Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
(4) And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
(5) Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
(6) O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
(7) At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;(8) If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.




GOD - I'll do this if and when you do that.
That's not GOD working in timelessness, that's GOD waiting to see what happens before He reacts.

Excellent Point

The Devil's advocate would say...

If a father is teaching his Son to ride a bike, He knows he is going to fall, but He handles the situation directly in line with how events unfold.

He stands in the place "His father" stood and asserts what he "know's" through response to an event he knows all too well. He acknowledges the child's needs as if this is a "first" experience.

#Pure Conjecture
#Devil's Advocate argument only, void of theological assertion

 

[Jerry Shugart]

GOD - I'll do this if and when you do that.
That's not GOD working in timelessness, that's GOD waiting to see what happens before He reacts.

We can understand that what was said in the verses which you quoted in the same way that we are to understand what is said here:

"And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me" (Gen.22:12).​

Since the LORD looks at the heart of man (1 Sam.16:7) then He would know for sure whether or not Abraham feared Him. Therefore, He certainly did not need to see any of Abraham's actions in order to know whether he feared Him or not.

What is said at Genesis 22:12 is in regard to this figure of speech:

"Antropopatheia; Ascribing to God what belongs to humans and rational beings..." (The Companion Bible; Appendix 6).​

 

[Tambora]

I then surmised with conjuncture that every created human is already known as a full soul. I suggested that God could instantaneously understand a souls true polarization towards Love or Hate. I said... "God can picture a soul as if it spanned 1,000,000 years of life in an instant and thus know even the true nature of an aborted soul. Thus, wicked or righteous and capable of faith.

I would word it that GOD has already calculated every action possible (every direction a man can go), and therefore can intervene to bring His plan to fruition because He already has a plan calculated for any direction the man takes.

GOD tells Jonah to go and tell Nineveh they will be destroyed in 40 days.
Jonah agrees, but then gets scared and goes in another direction.
GOD nudges a great fish to swallow Jonah.
Jonah then says he'll get right on it!

No timelessness required.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I would word it that GOD has already calculated every action possible (every direction a man can go), and therefore can intervene to bring His plan to fruition because He already has a plan calculated for any direction the man takes.

GOD tells Jonah to go and tell Nineveh they will be destroyed in 40 days.
Jonah agrees, but then gets scared and goes in another direction.
GOD nudges a great fish to swallow Jonah.
Jonah then says he'll get right on it!

No timelessness required.

Nice! I Love your wording. Excellent assertion.

#God's Truth just pointed at me and called me a flatterer
#Lol

 

[Tambora]

We can understand that what was said in the verses which you quoted in the same way that we are to understand what is said here:

"And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me" (Gen.22:12).​

Since the LORD looks at the heart of man (1 Sam.16:7) then He would know for sure whether or not Abraham feared Him. Therefore, He certainly did not need to see any of Abraham's actions in order to know whether he feared Him or not.

What is said at Genesis 22:12 is in regard to this figure of speech:

"Antropopatheia; Ascribing to God what belongs to humans and rational beings..." (The Companion Bible; Appendix 6).​

Along with the same verse, let me point out a word. (actually two).

And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me"


If GOD knew for a fact that Abraham would do what was asked at that time, there would be no reason whatsoever to add the word now.
In fact, if GOD did indeed live in timelessness and already knew in advance, then the statement would be more accurate without that word.
But this verse does have the word, and then goes on to say that GOD knows now because He has now seen it happen.


No timelessness at all included in the verse, nor need there be.

 

[Right Divider]

No timelessness at all included in the verse, nor need there be.

Is "timelessness" like being a non-smoker?

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Is "timelessness" like being a non-smoker?

Does that mean that heaven is non-smoking?

No fine cigars....?

#Silly Evil.Eye.<(I)>