That's entirely up to you. I would say the fundamental difference between an eternal God and an eternal universe is that of purpose (Telos). Do find a random universe void of external/divine purpose problematic or perhaps disconcerting?
The Timelessness of God
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
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That's entirely up to you. I would say the fundamental difference between an eternal God and an eternal universe is that of purpose (Telos). Do find a random universe void of external/divine purpose problematic or perhaps disconcerting?
Hmmmmmmm.... Confession... at a certain point in my life, I was so loaded down with blind faith and dogma that I let go of it all. I started to adopt full blown evolution, and that began to get just as dumb as all the religious dogma I had let go of. I felt like an enormous weight had been lifted off my shoulders and that very moment I began to feel a loving connection to all life!
For the first time in my life, I was free to enjoy life. Pretty soon, something odd happened as I drifted under the idea that there wasn't a God. I noticed that people who professed to be open minded atheist's had dogma admission to hang around with too.
This led me to simply be agnostic. I veraciously began to read the writings of many different religions and started to get an aha. Love equals freedom and hate equals slavery. Life's need for Love connected me to "Everything" in a spiritual sense. I began to brighten people's day with my positive attitude and loving Spirit.
Then depression set in. I started to realize that Love and spiritual communication have an enormous connection.......
One metaphorical book of life experience and study later... lots of deep searching, study of history, science, facts, psychology, theology and above all, the common thread of it all... Love... led me to the path I'm on. It is permanent for me.
So... no.. it doesn't make me uncomfortable. It wasn't till I let go that I felt swept up in the arms of something magnificent.
To me, God is my long lost love that I could be at opposite sides of the universe from and we manage to find one another.
I can't go anywhere without knowing the connection is there. No matter how mundane and empty I assert this universe is, I end up discovering otherwise.
..... tried to just let it bleed from my soul on those words. Hope you don't find me whacko.
: )
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Greetings Clete,
Earlier I said:
This is your answer:
If my idea is in error then please tell me when some man or woman have a foreknowledge of who would believe and be saved. As far as we know, a person might not even be alive tomorrow so no one on the earth can know whether or not that person will believe in the future.
Then please tell me how this happened unless the LORD exists outside of time?:
Notice that the LORD ordained or appoined them to eternal life before they believed. Therefore, the LORD had to foreknow who would believe.
Let us look at this verse:
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).
How could the LORD have chosen some to be saved before the foundation of the world unless He had a foreknowledge of exactly who would believe?
Thanks!
Earlier I said:
In fact, we cannot have a definite knowledge of very specific things which will happen in the future, such as knowing who will believe the gospel and who will not.
This is your answer:
If my idea is in error then please tell me when some man or woman have a foreknowledge of who would believe and be saved. As far as we know, a person might not even be alive tomorrow so no one on the earth can know whether or not that person will believe in the future.
Then please tell me how this happened unless the LORD exists outside of time?:
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).
Notice that the LORD ordained or appoined them to eternal life before they believed. Therefore, the LORD had to foreknow who would believe.
Let us look at this verse:
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).
How could the LORD have chosen some to be saved before the foundation of the world unless He had a foreknowledge of exactly who would believe?
Thanks!
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That isn't how debate works, Jerry!
You're asking me to substantiate your claim for you.
I'm not even saying you're wrong! I'm telling you that your argument does not support your position because you've got a primary premise that is nothing but an unsubstantiated claim. If you want an argument that is convincing then either substantiate the claim or make a different argument. I suggest that you do that latter because even if you could substantiate this claim, our inability to know the future with absolute certainty does not speak to what God can do nor does it suggest that anything exists outside of time!
Your argument here is "I couldn't do this unless I could sneak a peak into the future, therefore, God couldn't either, therefore, God must sneak a peak into the future.
If you think that I'm going to tacitly concede that by engaging you in this direction, you've lost your mind.
Further, this section of your post is another example of you arguing for your doctrine from your doctrine and I certainly am not going to tacitly concede your doctrine in order to argue against it.
Resting in Him,
Clete
I think you've been here long enough to know that I do not "attempt" put-downs. If it had been my intention to insult you, I'd have left doubt in no one's mind about it. You need to grow a thicker skin.
As for you being able to say the same thing. No, you couldn't. If you did, you'd not be here trying to convince me that God is never wrong about the future nor that He exists outside of time, neither of which doctrines are in the bible.
Don't be a hypocrite and do not blaspheme the God I serve. It is one of the quickest ways to find yourself on my ever growing ignore list. I'll over look it because you've taken offense from me where none was intended.
How would it make him a liar? This doesn't even make any sense! Jeremiah 18 specifically states that God's prophecies are conditional. Not only that but there's a whole list of prophecies that didn't happen, DR! Your doctrine has some big holes in it if failed prophecy turns God into a liar.
Further, let's suppose that there was some king somewhere that God needed to do something about and He decided to ask a group of angels what He should do. What do you suppose God's response would be if one of the angels volunteered to go down and lie to the king and trick him into doing what God wanted? Is that something God would allow or do you think that such a suggestion would be a rebellion on the angel's part that might get him kicked out of heaven with the demons?
Whether something is rational is not a matter of opinion, DR. I've made the argument. If you think my argument is fallacious, then make a counter argument.
And I've never said a syllable about you being a heretic. Calvinists are heretics but not because you believe in timeless existence. Arminians, for the most part, are not heretics and they believe in timeless existence as much as the Calvinists do. Being a heretic, at least in my estimation, has to do with what sort of God you believe in. If your doctrine teaches that God is arbitrary (i.e. unjust), for example, then you're a heretic.
Does He have to be that?
Ridiculing my sign off is ridiculing the gospel itself. I've done nothing to deserve this sort of treatment from you.
Resting in Him,
Clete
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Jerry,
I am not one of the people who have all day long to sit here and respond to TOL posts. If I haven't responded to you, it it's almost certainly because I work for a living and had to put it off. There's no need to repost the same post four times. I won't respond any faster. If I decide to put you back on my ignore list, I'll let you know. Otherwise, be patient and I'll get to your posts when time allows.
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That's an interesting statement there. You have a "God" that's wrong sometimes. That is not the God of the Bible.
Do you think that God wants to be right bout all prophecies?
See, I think that wants to be proven wrong sometimes. For example, the relatively minor prophecy that Peter would deny Christ three times before the rooster crowed, could Peter have realized what he was doing and then repented before the third time? Do you think that God would have been angry if He was wrong about Peter? I say to you NO! He would have been extremely glad that that prophecy didn't come to pass. God loves being wrong about prophecies that foretell bad things, because God wants us to be blessed, not cursed.
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Yes, God declares that He is "not a man, that He should lie".
Num 23:19 (AKJV/PCE)
(23:19) God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Making false statements is lying and God does not do that. :nono:
I'd say that that is some wild speculation without any foundation.
The blessings and cursing are conditional.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
-DELETED-
I do not claim that God lies. I claim that God can be wrong about the future, because He does not know it.
Here is my biblical proof for that claim.
Jeremiah 18:
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Saying it doesn't make it so.
Is that all that you're going to respond too?
I'd like an answer to my question...
Let's suppose that there was a king somewhere that God needed to do something about and He decided to ask a group of angels what He should do. What do you suppose God's response would be if one of the angels volunteered to go down and lie to the king and trick him into doing what God wanted? Is that something God would allow or do you think that such a suggestion would be a rebellion on the angel's part that might get him kicked out of heaven with the demons?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Yes, and He also says that if the LORD says something then He will make it good. How could that possibly be true if He speaks of things which will happen in the future and then those things do not happen?
Thanks for quoting that verse!
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So according to your ideas the LORD will make prophecies even though He might not be sure that they will come to pass. That idea is contradicted by what is said in "bold"" here:
"God is not like a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" (Num.23:19).
In regard to the verses which you quoted, please consider what the LORD said to Abraham here:
"And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me" (Gen.22:12).
Since the LORD looks at the heart of man (1 Sam.16:7) then He would know for sure whether or not Abraham feared Him. Therefore, He certainly did not need to see any of Abraham's actions in order to know whether he feared Him or not. Therefore, the word "now" in the verse is not to be taken literally.
What is said at Genesis 22:12 is in regard to this figure of speech:
"Antropopatheia; Ascribing to God what belongs to humans and rational beings..." (The Companion Bible; Appendix 6).
That is how we are to understand the verses which you quoted.
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You're welcome.
And I must say that I'm completely shocked that some people think that God makes false claims. Just shocked.
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Wildly hypothetical questions don't prove anything either.
I'm really shocked that you think that God is occasionally wrong.
Is it wildly hypothetical if it actually happened?
I Kings 22:19 Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by, on His right hand and on His left. 20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ 22 The Lord said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’ 23 Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.”
I am not persuaded by what does or doesn't shock you.
You claim the ability to say that your doctrine is based on what the bible teaches but you don't even know what the bible teaches! You didn't have any idea that I Kings 22 existed before I just quoted it and if you're at all intellectually honest, it should, at the very least, haven't sent an earthquake through your doctrinal worldview.
You'll do yourself a favor if you simply adopt the following axioms for your life.
1. What the bible actually teaches is the truth.
2. No truth is irrational.
And when it comes to theology, what you believe about the nature of God is the most important thing - bar none. Your 'theology proper' informs every other aspect of doctrine. If you get who God is wrong, there's no telling where you'll end up. In general, you'll be forced to make a choice between two sets of divine attributes. You will either emphasize what is referred to as God's quantitative attributes or His qualitative attributes. His quantitative attributes are things like the Omni-attributes (omniscience, omnipotence, etc). They are about how much power God has, how much knowledge He has, how big God is, etc. The qualitative attributes have to do with things like God is personal, loving, kind, just, merciful, righteous, etc. And make no mistake about it. You do have to choose. The Calvinists (and others) try to claim that they do not choose but it's obvious that they do. It is not rationally possible to avoid it.
And so, given this choice and given that we want to have a biblical theology, which should take precedence over the other? The bible tells us explicitly...
Psalm 45:6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Psalm 89:14 Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne; Mercy and truth go before Your face.
Psalm 97:2 Clouds and darkness surround Him; Righteousness and justice are the foundation of His throne.
Proverbs 16:12 It is an abomination for kings to commit wickedness, For a throne is established by righteousness.
Isaiah 16:5 In mercy the throne will be established; And One will sit on it in truth, in the tabernacle of David, Judging and seeking justice and hastening righteousness.”
Hebrews 1:8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Psalm 89:14 Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne; Mercy and truth go before Your face.
Psalm 97:2 Clouds and darkness surround Him; Righteousness and justice are the foundation of His throne.
Proverbs 16:12 It is an abomination for kings to commit wickedness, For a throne is established by righteousness.
Isaiah 16:5 In mercy the throne will be established; And One will sit on it in truth, in the tabernacle of David, Judging and seeking justice and hastening righteousness.”
Hebrews 1:8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
The bible so clearly places righteousness above power (sovereignty) that one wonders why the Calvinist refuses to do the same. Don't make their same mistake! Make your allegiance to God's word rationally understood and nothing else.
Resting in Him,
Clete
P.S. I ran a quick spell check but don't have time for my normal editing process with paragraph seperation and other clarifications. Sorry if this post doesn't seem to flow very well.
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So, in all of this, are you trying to say that God lies?
:french:
I was NOT trying to use my opinion about that to "persuade" you. Just making a statement of my opinion. I've heard that we all get one.
No, I do not have every page of the Bible committed to memory. Apparently, you do.
I do.
Are you trying to lump me in with Calvinists?
You think that God makes false claims about the future. Where does that put you in regards to God's nature?
The Bible condemns lying as an act of unrighteousness. It calls that baring false witness.
If God says that something will happen and it does not, what else would you call it unless there is some other caveat that makes the claim conditional. I know that you claim that I'm somehow cheating when I say that.
No problem.
If someone tells you something that is untrue, but doesn't know that it it's not true, does that make them a liar?
He's pointing out that a lot of what you're saying is also taught in Calvinism. That God is outside of time is an idea that came from the pagan Greeks, not from the Bible.
No, we are stating that God does not know the future, but that God is smart, and can make predictions about his creation.
Was it absolutely wrong for Corrie ten Boom to lie to the Nazis when helping the Jews escape?
Your problem is that you're assuming that God knows the future. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that God knows the future.
RD, Which is more important to God, righteousness or omniscience?
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The LORD used a "lying spirit" to deceive the king. However, I see no evidence that the "lying spirit" was an angel and that spirit could have been a demon. After all, the Scriptures do speak of an "evil spirit."
What evidence can you give that demonstrates that the "lying spirit" was an angel?
Thanks!
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