the three johns

Caino

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The Book of Revelation was the last and most controversial book added to the cannon. Although he later changed his mind many agreed with Martin Luther "Christ is not found within it."


Apocalyptic writers of such books as "The Book of Enoch" had an influence on many failed end times predictions.

Those who do not believe that the original gospel will eventually subdue mankind are more disposed to sit back and wait for an apocalypse.
 

HisServant

New member
The prevalent wisdom on the book of Revelation at this point is that it was written by three different authors, or a single author wrote it in three sections many years apart.

I personally believe that Revelation has very little to give to the church or reader because the symbolism is so obscure that it cannot be understood without the western world view... it is specifically Jewish and needs to be researched and understood from that point of view.

There was also an apocalyptic book by Peter that was deemed non-canonical.

IMNSHO, no other book in the scriptures has caused so much division within the body then Revelation
 

HisServant

New member
The Book of Revelation was the last and most controversial book added to the cannon. Although he later changed his mind many agreed with Martin Luther "Christ is not found within it."


Apocalyptic writers of such books as "The Book of Enoch" had an influence on many failed end times predictions.

Those who do not believe that the original gospel will eventually subdue mankind are more disposed to sit back and wait for an apocalypse.

Yea.. Spurgeon pretty much said the same thing about futurists (they were preoccupied with looking to the sky for their ticket to escape rather then doing God's work). There was a good article I read the other day how futurism has made the physical church of no earthly good.
 

chrysostom

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I personally believe that Revelation has very little to give to the church or reader because the symbolism is so obscure that it cannot be understood without the western world view...

I think it has inspired more people than any other book of the bible
 

chrysostom

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Division is what it has inspired... and has bred a futurists eschatology which has neutered most Christians when it comes to doing what Jesus commanded us.

true but you must know how small their numbers are

most never heard about them before coming to tol
 

HisServant

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true but you must know how small their numbers are

most never heard about them before coming to tol

Some claim that dispensationalism is the largest group of Christians in the USA.... so its not as small as you think.

Then you have JW's, Mormon's and a whole boat load of other denominations based on futurism.
 

chrysostom

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Some claim that dispensationalism is the largest group of Christians in the USA.... so its not as small as you think.

Then you have JW's, Mormon's and a whole boat load of other denominations based on futurism.

okay say their numbers are greater than I think
so
how are they hurting us?
 

chrysostom

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Revelation 1:2King James Version (KJV)

2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.


John 5:33King James Version (KJV)

33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.


the first john of the apocalypse
who bare record
sounds like
the baptist
who bare witness

who also knew the Lamb of God

John 1:36
And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

Revelation 5:6
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
 

chrysostom

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the three johns

why does john mention his name three times in the first chapter?

why is the name of Jesus not mentioned in chapters 4 thru 11?

why are the churches not mentioned in the commentary by Victorinus?

why aren't the churches acknowledge in the church history written by Eusebius?

why doesn't Eusebius mention the martyr Antipas?

why did they mention ancient copies of the apocalypse?

why didn't they agree on whether the apocalypse was written by the apostle?

the only answer for all of these questions
is
there was more than one version of the apocalypse

possibly three


back to
the apocalypse

so why the third john?
 

chrysostom

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so why the third john?

during the 4th century
the bible was taking shape
there was a good chance the apocalypse would be left out
the only real question
was it written by the apostle?
something convinced jerome and others that it was
at that time chysostom was in ephesus
 

OCTOBER23

New member
Why am I sitting on the John thinking about Eusebiuis' attempt at a commentary on the Scriptures and his errors..............


'But even if the case were not such as our argument has
now proved it to be, if a lawgiver, who is to be of ever so little
use, could have ventured to tell any falsehood at all to the young
for their good, is there any falsehood that he could have told
more beneficial than this, and better able to make them all do
everything that is just, not by compulsion but willingly?
'Truth, O Stranger, is a noble and an enduring thing; it seems,
however, not easy to persuade men of it.'
d PLATO
Now you may find in the Hebrew Scriptures also
thousands of such passages concerning God as though
He were jealous, or sleeping, or angry, or subject to any
other human passions, which passages are adopted for the
benefit of those who need this mode of instruction.
p. 608
As you can see, the 'quotation' appears nowhere in the work, which is cast in the form of a discussion quoting passages from the philosophers and discussing their relationship with the Hebrew scriptures (The quote from Plato is from the Laws II, 663 d 6 - e 4). History, as such, is not under discussion in the work at all. In this passage, a piece of Plato is discussed, and the way in which the Hebrew scriptures acknowledge the inability of most men to reason (and how, unlike the philosophers, they don't exclude that class of men) and embody it as part of their message is outlined.

Clearly the reference we started with is quite wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xR09kxJWoTY&list=PL61206A1D5F9190D3
 

OCTOBER23

New member
Chris said,

what do you think the purpose of the apocalypse is?
and
how do you go about understanding it?
--------------------------------------------------------------

Go to Youtube and type in any subject you want.

The Apocalypse is the time of Testing of the world seeking

who is for JESUS and who is for Satan in the form of Islam and Catholicism

and all other anti-christ religions.
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
the three johns

why does john mention his name three times in the first chapter?

why is the name of Jesus not mentioned in chapters 4 thru 11?

why are the churches not mentioned in the commentary by Victorinus?

why aren't the churches acknowledge in the church history written by Eusebius?

why doesn't Eusebius mention the martyr Antipas?

why did they mention ancient copies of the apocalypse?

why didn't they agree on whether the apocalypse was written by the apostle?

the only answer for all of these questions
is
there was more than one version of the apocalypse

possibly three


back to
the apocalypse

That is so intriguing, but what are you talking about?

The gospel of John? the epistles of John or the Revelation of Jesus Christ as written by John?

God authored scripture, there fore scripture is as perfect as God is.

How perfect do you say God is? Perfect or less than perfect?

God's word is perfect.

I am not writing about a book in your hand that is rightfully called a version. But that which God authored when holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. II Peter 1:21

God is the only author of genuine scripture, therefore our job is to learn what genuine scripture said
 

chrysostom

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Hall of Fame
That is so intriguing, but what are you talking about?

The gospel of John? the epistles of John or the Revelation of Jesus Christ as written by John?

there was a time when the Revelation of Jesus Christ as written by John was referred to as the apocalypse

sorry for the confusion
 
O

Origen

Guest
It was Charles who insisted that it was originally written in hebrew and later translated into greek.
I do not see where Charles made such a claim. He does say that the style is Hebraic but no where could I find that he claimed it was written in Hebrew.

How, then, are we to explain the unbridled licence of his Greek constructions? The reason clearly is that, while he writes in Greek, he thinks in Hebrew, and the thought has naturally affected the vehicle of expression. (p.82)

Before laying out his evidence, Charles he goes on to say:
Even this evidence will, I hope, be sufficient to produce a conviction that the style is Hebraic in character. (p. 83)
Clearly Charles does not think Revelation was originally written in Hebrew but wrote in Greek in a Hebraic style.

Now Charles does refer to others who make such claims but obviously, given the above quotes, he does not agree. Charles calls into question their most basic assumptions and evidence in order to refute their claims.
 
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chrysostom

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I do not see where Charles made such a claim. He does say that the style is Hebraic but no where could I find that he claimed it was written in Hebrew.



Before laying out his evidence, Charles he goes on to say:

Clearly Charles does not think Revelation was originally written in Hebrew but wrote in Greek in a Hebraic style.

Now Charles does refer to others who make such a claims but obviously, given the above quotes, he does not agree. Charles calls into question their most basic assumptions and evidence in order to refute their calims.

thank you for this

I will revisit it
 
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