Is there judgment, going to heaven, or resurrection when a person dies? Or is judgment and resurrection (in whatever order) later? Are we judged when we die or judged when we are resurrected? Judgment comes with death or judgment follows death.
ECT The resurrection... specifically, the rapture.
- Thread starter Jacob
- Start date
Judgement of God's house occurs before they die, as it did in the past in the OT.
Trumpets of Rev. signify that.
LA
I am not sure of your interpretation of Revelation.
What do you make of this verse?
Hebrews 9:27 NASB - And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
Sheila B
Member
Regarding being judged in this life while we live- rather than "judgement" I think of it as the God-given trials of this life that prove our love for God, hone our mettle as Christians, and provide God with the proof of why his children will receive rewards when we die. It just clarifies my thinking if I express troubles/adversities as God-given trials.
1. trials/testing; partial removal of the beam that is in our own eye - as an example of our present sanctification process
2. death
3. personal judgement before Jesus (private or semi private, that is only the persons we have known/dealt with in our life)
4. removal of wood/hay/stubble- immediate rewards/purification
5. enter the Tabernacle not made with hands and sit with Jesus on His/our Throne
6. with Jesus and the angles and saints intercede for humanity until the end of time
7. Resurrection of all bodies which will instantly be united to the souls that are said to be: in heaven on earth and under the earth and in the sea.
8. General or White Throne Judgement of all humanity
note here: since every soul that has dies is either in heaven or hell since their death, the general judgement for these souls will be so that all humanity can know the final outcome of every person's choices, every king, nation, country, etc. throughout all time. The ripple in the pond, so to speak.
Matt 25:31 and 32 The King on His throne.
This is described by Jesus thusly:
The Queen of the South will rise and condemn you for she traveled to see Solomon, and a greater than Solomon is here.
The people of Nineveh will rise to the judgement and condemn you for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and a greater than Jonah is here.
Perhaps all aborted babies and such, will rise and have their say at this time.
Thus, Jesus shows that the final outcome of humanity of all ages will be made known to ALL. When the curtain of time finally goes down, there will be NO secrets. Everyone will completely understand why they are where they are and why they have received good or bad for all eternity.
Then: Inherit the kingdom prepared for you... or not
Well, this is my understanding "today" from scripture. I am always open to learning more, and adjusting my viewpoint.
Livelystone
New member
In addition, through the design of the pattern given to Moses who was told to build the OT tabernacle, and everything inside exactly as God told him to build it, we can learn that the soul is a body for the spirit. When this bit of knowledge is fully grasped causes radical changes as to the real truth of what has been considered already understood by the church for centuries. Because of the churches error in this all important aspect about what the Word of God teaches, the power within His Word that is intended for us, (the church) is being withheld from us (the church) causing the power within the Word of God to become of "no effect in us". Consequently, the church has been "missing the mark" of the truth, (a definition for sin) and the blessings associated with obtaining the mark of the truth for many centuries now.
This is the best question ever asked.
Nobody gets to decide but His Law determines the validity of everything being spoken within the Bible as to whether a church's doctrines and teachings are right or wrong.
If I could wish only one revelation to become known to all of the BOC would be what is taught in the following link. If one learns this as God would have us to know it, and practice it,they will step from darkness into the light of truth concerning what the Bible teaches.
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76526
On the other one can become like two critics who filled multiple pages of how and why it was wrong even they never read it, but instead allowed Satan to use them as his mouthpiece here at TOL. There are others including just recently from another member here who has become a thorn in the side of the truth God would have His children to learn.
Because there has been a change in the priesthood form literal to spiritual, their must be a corresponding change in the law if the Law is going to become our schoolteacher to bring us to the point where the fulness of Christ has been formed in us........... that just so happens to be the high calling of our profession.
It is the exact way the apostles and myself both study and teach the scriptures......... there is no substitute for it, and the same as it teaches those who will be taught knowledge, it is also used to correct anyone including myself
I hope you get it
Blessings,
Doug
Last edited:
Livelystone
New member
This is true, however, the same as Adam died the same day when he first sinned, (disobeyed God) so has everyone else died when they first sinned validating the sentence of death already on them before they were ever born.
Therefore, (and seen in the multitude of verses I have already submitted over a multitude of threads ) we, who were once sinners without God, were already dead before believing in Jesus who said all of those who believe in Him have past from death unto life and will never die
All persons at the end of their physical lives are resurrected unto judgment for better or for worse.
Re.20:5 KJV simply confirms that the wicked are not resurrected until after the righteous are who are resurrected in this life when they do as Jesus said by believing in Him have passed from death unto life.
Those believers who are resurrected with the unbelievers are Christians who have failed in their walk with God and are taking part along side of those who are taking part in the resurrection of the "un-righteous' AKA un-believers
It means that all men will be judged after they die and are raised again as it was for Christ.
However the judgment of God of the sinless is given in the resurrection itself.
Gods Household must be judged before the members die if they are to be raised in the first resurrection.
and the unworthy of Gods Household will have opportunity to repent when the events of the trumpets begin to occur, which for most believers does occur. If one understands what they mean then they will see how it happened for them already if they are fit for the first resurrection.
The first four trumpets relate to the falling away and then the actual fall of the kingdoms of men.
All saints go through that at some time, because of Heb.ch 12.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
LA
I believe you are incorrect.
The dead in Christ are not those who have failed. "Those who have failed" is not even mentioned in the Bible. This is a made-up doctrine.
I think what you have said is that there is a future judgment, not or not just at the moment of death.
Some of those who are raised do not experience the second death.
Livelystone
New member
I have never said this nor taken this position . You are bearing false witness and are in danger of becoming a liar and false accuser of the brethren by making this false accusation against me!!!
You make stupid statements and error because you do not know the scriptures nor realize the power in the knowing the truth of them
Try this on for size and your edification,
Fair enough?
Luke 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers[/SIZE]
You do not like to be disagreed with do you.
Untellectual is doing his best to understand the truth.
You should apologize.
LA
Livelystone
New member
We are now living in the time of the first death
Everyone will experience the time of the second death but for those who have already experienced the resurrection and passed from death unto life through believing in the truth of Jesus....... For them the time of the second death will not have any power over them nor will it hurt them.
The time of the second death is for those who still need to "kill their old man" because they did not do so when alive on earth and are still stuck with the mind of man because they have yet to obtain the mind of Christ that is the Blessing associated with Tabernacles.
Those whom the second death has power over are at best only foolish virgins....... aka Christians who did not worship God in spirit and in truth
What was it that you said or didn't say?
Interesting verse here Livelystone.
Is the first death physical death?
Livelystone
New member
Apologize???????
The man just made a totally false accusation me of something I not only have never said but is contrary to what I have always said about the "dead in Christ".
Fair enough?
I have always taken the position that the dead in Christ are Christians who are very much physically alive and have succeeded at worshipping God in truth.
This is why they have quote buttons here........ if you cannot quote someone saying something, do not say they said something they never said just because it makes you look good.......... especially when their history of posting on a subject is completely different from the accusation made
If an apology is owed, it is owed to me.
However, i would rather him learn the truth as well as you to learn the truth who is just as wrong as he is
Last edited:
Wrong.
Those in Christ are alive in Christ.
Those dead in Christ are dead in the grave.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
LA
Livelystone
New member
I am tired of proving through the law that determines the truth that you are wrong
This is the last time I will present it lawfully to you........ if you do not want to accept what God says, fine, go ahead and die in your sins because your blood will not be upon me
Here are those who are dead in Christ who are still perfectly alive
Colossians 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Colossians 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
If you would follow the laws for determining the truth you would not make the mistake of denying what has been lawfully presented to you....... Instead you error because of the traditions of man you are yielding to that make the word of God to be of no effect.
The entire purpose of being baptized is being baptized into his death so we may through the power of God be risen with Him who is the resurrection
Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
For those who already have died physically when the spirit goes back to God to be judged for better or worse
2Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Your insistence to follow the traditions of what others have taught you while refusing to adhere to the Word of God being lawfully presented to you shows both your rebellion to God and your total lack of understanding how we are to acquire sonship through the resurrection of Christ in us who is the resurrection, and is the hope of our glory.
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Here is a quote from my book
"As if knowledge about the things of God were not already difficult, we must also understand that when the Bible refers to being dead, it can mean either being physically dead or being spiritually dead while still being physically alive. In Romans, Paul speaks of Christians being alive unto God because they are dead to sin, but in Colossians, Paul speaks of being dead in Christ while not living by the standards of the world that is physically alive around him, yet condemned to death. The bottom line is that we are spiritually born into the valley of death, and this life is the first death while the life that follows this one is the second death, and is where all sin and evil in mankind is eventually destroyed".
Get it right now or die still being wrong.................. the choice is yours
Levolor
New member
Hello LA,
I know you provided scripture showing that those dead in Christ are dead in the grave.
There are also scriptures showing being crucified into Christ... having experienced His death... not so much the death of crucifixion, but of self... the death that Jesus experienced in the Garden. The death of 'my will' and the birth of 'thy will be done', which is being crucified into Christ.
'It is not I who lives, but Christ in me who lives' is another way of saying being dead in Christ even though it is I who am also alive in Christ. The life He lives I now live, but who I was is now dead.
Scriptures available upon request, though, I believe you recognize the ones I have referred to.
God Bless you.
Levolor
New member
Hi Livelystone,
I just now read your post, after replying to LA. Your post is quite knowledgeable, and this kind of knowledge I believe only comes about from the experiencing thereof.
About what is quoted above, I thought I'd tell you one of my beliefs.
I believe that it won't matter so much what we know or believe, but instead it will matter how well we have loved one another.
God Bless you.