The Recorded Atrocities of John Calvin

musterion

Well-known member
You make God Unjust in punishing persons for sins that were punished in Christ already!

Ducky, this is why I consider B57 the most honest and consistent Calvinist on TOL. He (she?) knows faith has nothing to do with either election or reprobation, salvation or damnation. It's all according the predestined decree of God in eternity past.
 

Dialogos

Well-known member
Nonsense. If Calvinism is true and someone is elect from eternity past, they were and are already safe in the hand of God forever...
How would this differ from Arminianism where God is still elect from eternity past based on God's knowledge of their future decision?

The only theology that escapes this silly objection is Open Theism, are you an open theist?

Musterion said:
Faith in Christ is merely a technical detail that will be worked out eventually but doesn't actually accomplish what was already settled in Heaven before you were ever born.
No, God ordains both the ends and the means, faith in Christ is the means of salvation.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
I would agree with your proof statement, but not that it proves you point. I think you are arguing for eternal reconciliation and justification here, but that is not what I hold to be true. I was born as a child of wrath and at some time in time [October 31, 1976] God saved me. The means used were the means used, and not the fact of election.

The Elect are by nature children of wrath as others Eph 2:3 but they are not under God's wrath as such, for they still have been reconciled to God while they are enemies/children of wrath Rom 5:10 ! One can't be reconciled as a enemy and under God's wrath as a enemy, that is a contradiction!
 

musterion

Well-known member
The Elect are by nature children of wrath as others Eph 2:3 but they are not under God's wrath as such, for they still have been reconciled to God while they are enemies/children of wrath Rom 5:10 ! One can't be reconciled as a enemy and under God's wrath as a enemy, that is a contradiction!

See? B57 gets Calvinism.
 

Nanja

Well-known member
I get the Truth of scripture !


Yes! Thanking God for you! :)

2 Thes. 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord,
because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit
and belief of the truth


~~~~~
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Yes! Thanking God for you! :)

2 Thes. 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord,
because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit
and belief of the truth


~~~~~

:) Amen!
 

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Three "blinded minds" :plain: 2 Cor 4:3-4 KJV!

~~~~~

Ummmmmm. No!

Jude 4 King James Version (KJV)

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
 

Nanja

Well-known member
Jude 4 King James Version (KJV)

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

That's YOU!

~~~~~
 

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
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That's YOU!

~~~~~

YOU are the one who cannot show that Calvinism is the Gospel. The Apostle Paul clearly defines the Gospel in four simple verses.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 King James Version (KJV)

15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Paul states; I declare unto you the GOSPEL in verse 1. Show me where Calvinism says that.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
YOU are the one who cannot show that Calvinism is the Gospel. The Apostle Paul clearly defines the Gospel in four simple verses.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 King James Version (KJV)

15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Paul states; I declare unto you the GOSPEL in verse 1. Show me where Calvinism says that.

Nanja did not respond to your post because she cannot stand to hear the truth.

Calvinism is an attempt to make the glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ of no effect.

If you are a Calvinist and you believe that you were predestinated to salvation before the foundation of the world, then why would you need Jesus Christ and his Gospel?
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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The Apostle Paul clearly defines the Gospel in four simple verses.
Yes he does, and we Calvinists affirm it wholeheartedly. I doubt that using this passage helps the non-Calvinist one little bit if they are using it to cavil against Calvinism.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 King James Version (KJV)

15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Given Paul's clear and unequivocal address to the brethren, the ones believing not in vain, no one should dispute exactly who Our Lord came to save.

No limits can be set on the value or power of the atonement which Christ made, since it depends upon and is measured by the one making it—Christ—and the value of His suffering was infinite. Therefore, the atonement was infinitely meritorious and might have saved every member of the human race had that been God's plan. The atonement was limited only in the sense that it was intended for, and is applied to, particular persons; namely for those who are actually saved.

Universal atonement destroys the atonement's inherent value. When applied to everyone, while we know some will be lost, universal atonement makes salvation objectively possible for all but it does not actually save anybody. To non-Calvinists this theory of atonement makes it possible for persons to cooperate with God’s divine grace and therefore save themselves—if they will.

If atonement makes salvation possible, it applies to all persons. If atonement effectively secures salvation, it has reference only the elect. The choice between these two views is an atonement of high value or an atonement of wide extension. The non-Calvinist limits the power of the atonement, saying that the atonement itself does not actually save anybody. The Calvinist limits the atonement quantitatively, but not qualitatively; the non-Calvinist limits it qualitatively, but not quantitatively.

Non-Calvinist related atonement:
If the benefits of the atonement are universal and unlimited, the atonement must have been

1. a sacrifice to blot out the curse upon mankind through the fall in Adam;
2. a mere substitute for the execution of the law which God in His sovereignty saw fit to accept in lieu of what the sinner was bound to render;
3. not a perfect satisfaction which fulfilled the demands of justice;
4. God no longer demands perfect obedience as He did of Adam;
5. God now offers salvation on lower terms in that
---5a. God removes legal obstacles and accepts the faith and evangelical obedience as a person with a graciously restored ability could render, if he chose, with the Holy Spirit of course aiding in a general way; and
---5b. grace would be extended in that God offers an easier way of salvation—“God accepts fifty cents on the dollar”, since the crippled sinner can pay no more.

If the non-Calvinist doctrine were true it would mean that millions of those for whom Christ died are finally lost, because they refused to believe, and that salvation is thus never applied to many of those for whom it was earned by Christ. As Spurgeon said: "If Christ has died for you, you can never be lost. God will not punish twice for one thing. If God punished Christ for your sins He will not punish you. ('Payment God's justice cannot twice demand; first, at the bleeding Savior's hand, and then again at mine.') How can God be just if he punished Christ, the substitute, and then man himself afterwards?" In short, the ransom for many, but not all (Matthew 20:28), is misunderstood and God is unjust to demand an extreme penalty from the substitute (Christ) and then from the persons themselves.

Calvinistic Atonement:
If the benefits of the atonement are not universal and unlimited, the atonement must have been

1. the law of perfect obedience originally given to Adam was permanent;
2. that God has never done anything which would give the impression that the law was too rigid in its requirements, or too severe in its penalty, or that it stood in need either of abrogation or of derogation;
3. divine justice demands that the sinner shall be punished, either in himself or in his substitute;
4. Christ acted in a strictly substitutionary way for His people, made a full satisfaction for their sins, thereby blotting out the curse from Adam and all persons temporal sins;
5. by Christ’s sinless life He perfectly kept for them the law which Adam had broken, thus earning, from His passive and active obedience, for His people the reward of eternal life;
6. the requirement for salvation now as always has been is perfect obedience;
7. that the merits of Christ are imputed to His people as the only basis of their salvation;
8. that Christ’s people enter heaven clothed only with the cloak of His perfect righteousness and utterly destitute of any merit properly their own;
9. grace, pure grace, is extended not in lowering the requirements for salvation but in the substitution of Christ for His people;
---9a. Christ took their place before the law and did for them what they could not do for themselves;
10. this principle of atonement is such that in every way so designed to impress upon mankind the absolute perfection and unchangeable obligation of the law which was originally given to Adam;
---10a. it is not relaxed or set aside, but is appropriately honored to show its excellence; and
11. in behalf of those who are saved, for whom Christ acted, and in behalf of those who are subjected to everlasting punishment, the law in its majesty is enforced and executed.

AMR
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Yes he does, and we Calvinists affirm it wholeheartedly. I doubt that using this passage helps the non-Calvinist one little bit if they are using it to cavil against Calvinism.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 King James Version (KJV)

15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Given Paul's clear and unequivocal address to the brethren, the ones believing not in vain, no one should dispute exactly who Our Lord came to save.

No limits can be set on the value or power of the atonement which Christ made, since it depends upon and is measured by the one making it—Christ—and the value of His suffering was infinite. Therefore, the atonement was infinitely meritorious and might have saved every member of the human race had that been God's plan. The atonement was limited only in the sense that it was intended for, and is applied to, particular persons; namely for those who are actually saved.

Universal atonement destroys the atonement's inherent value. When applied to everyone, while we know some will be lost, universal atonement makes salvation objectively possible for all but it does not actually save anybody. To non-Calvinists this theory of atonement makes it possible for persons to cooperate with God’s divine grace and therefore save themselves—if they will.

If atonement makes salvation possible, it applies to all persons. If atonement effectively secures salvation, it has reference only the elect. The choice between these two views is an atonement of high value or an atonement of wide extension. The non-Calvinist limits the power of the atonement, saying that the atonement itself does not actually save anybody. The Calvinist limits the atonement quantitatively, but not qualitatively; the non-Calvinist limits it qualitatively, but not quantitatively.

Non-Calvinist related atonement:
If the benefits of the atonement are universal and unlimited, the atonement must have been

1. a sacrifice to blot out the curse upon mankind through the fall in Adam;
2. a mere substitute for the execution of the law which God in His sovereignty saw fit to accept in lieu of what the sinner was bound to render;
3. not a perfect satisfaction which fulfilled the demands of justice;
4. God no longer demands perfect obedience as He did of Adam;
5. God now offers salvation on lower terms in that
---5a. God removes legal obstacles and accepts the faith and evangelical obedience as a person with a graciously restored ability could render, if he chose, with the Holy Spirit of course aiding in a general way; and
---5b. grace would be extended in that God offers an easier way of salvation—“God accepts fifty cents on the dollar”, since the crippled sinner can pay no more.

If the non-Calvinist doctrine were true it would mean that millions of those for whom Christ died are finally lost, because they refused to believe, and that salvation is thus never applied to many of those for whom it was earned by Christ. As Spurgeon said: "If Christ has died for you, you can never be lost. God will not punish twice for one thing. If God punished Christ for your sins He will not punish you. ('Payment God's justice cannot twice demand; first, at the bleeding Savior's hand, and then again at mine.') How can God be just if he punished Christ, the substitute, and then man himself afterwards?" In short, the ransom for many, but not all (Matthew 20:28), is misunderstood and God is unjust to demand an extreme penalty from the substitute (Christ) and then from the persons themselves.

Calvinistic Atonement:
If the benefits of the atonement are not universal and unlimited, the atonement must have been

1. the law of perfect obedience originally given to Adam was permanent;
2. that God has never done anything which would give the impression that the law was too rigid in its requirements, or too severe in its penalty, or that it stood in need either of abrogation or of derogation;
3. divine justice demands that the sinner shall be punished, either in himself or in his substitute;
4. Christ acted in a strictly substitutionary way for His people, made a full satisfaction for their sins, thereby blotting out the curse from Adam and all persons temporal sins;
5. by Christ’s sinless life He perfectly kept for them the law which Adam had broken, thus earning, from His passive and active obedience, for His people the reward of eternal life;
6. the requirement for salvation now as always has been is perfect obedience;
7. that the merits of Christ are imputed to His people as the only basis of their salvation;
8. that Christ’s people enter heaven clothed only with the cloak of His perfect righteousness and utterly destitute of any merit properly their own;
9. grace, pure grace, is extended not in lowering the requirements for salvation but in the substitution of Christ for His people;
---9a. Christ took their place before the law and did for them what they could not do for themselves;
10. this principle of atonement is such that in every way so designed to impress upon mankind the absolute perfection and unchangeable obligation of the law which was originally given to Adam;
---10a. it is not relaxed or set aside, but is appropriately honored to show its excellence; and
11. in behalf of those who are saved, for whom Christ acted, and in behalf of those who are subjected to everlasting punishment, the law in its majesty is enforced and executed.

AMR



Another long proclamation about Calvinism. No doubt about it Calvinism is very complicated.
 

Granite

New member
Hall of Fame
Yup, jolly old Geneva.

And we should give religious zealots political power because it always goes so well.
 
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