ECT The Real Most Miisunderstood Passage in the Bible John 3

[Danoh]

How else will you "see" Messiah in this life Jerry?
Do you not know what your doctrine is missing?

This is essentially the Gospel of Paul:

Luke 16:31 ASV
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, if one rise from the dead.

Luke 24:27 ASV
27 And beginning from Moses and from all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Luke 24:44-46 ASV
44 And he said unto them, These are my words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must needs be fulfilled, which are written in the law of Moses, and the prophets, and the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their mind, that they might understand the scriptures;
46 and he said unto them, Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer, and rise again from the dead the third day;

Without the fore-written evidence from the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, your faith can really only be a fideistic, or blind faith, which is not actually based on any evidence at all. It is no different than someone telling you a story and you simply believing it because you like how the story goes. My faith is not like that at all.

That is one aspect of....

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Christ being THAT END the Law and the Prophets had pointed to.

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Romans chapters 9 thru 11 is written in light of passages like...

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

What was it the election of Israel had obtained?

Christ.

As illustrated by this incredibly beautiful account of that blind man and Israel's Christ...

John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? 9:36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? 9:37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

Worshipped Him?

John 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

Worshipped Him?

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

But that is only one aspect of The Christ the Law and the Prophets had pointed to.

He was also the end OF the Law FOR righteousness.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Without the fore-written evidence from the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, your faith can really only be a fideistic, or blind faith, which is not actually based on any evidence at all. It is no different than someone telling you a story and you simply believing it because you like how the story goes. My faith is not like that at all.

Since the gospel which was not revealed in the OT came in power and in the Holy Spirit (1 Thess.1:5) then it is certain that those who believe it do not have a blind faith.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Christ being THAT END the Law and the Prophets had pointed to.

I believe that the only valid interpretation of Romans 10:4 is determined by its context :

"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Ro.10:3-4).​

These people were trying to establish their own righteousness by keeping the law. And Paul speaks of that same righteousness here:

"And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faithfulness of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith" (Phil.3:9).​

No believer is under the law's demands for righteousness because the righteousness which is of God has been imputed to them (Ro.4:5). That explains why Paul wrote that "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

 

[Right Divider]

I believe that the only valid interpretation of Romans 10:4 is determined by its context :

"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Ro.10:3-4).​

These people were trying to establish their own righteousness by keeping the law. And Paul speaks of that same righteousness here:

"And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faithfulness of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith" (Phil.3:9).​

No believer is under the law's demands for righteousness because the righteousness which is of God has been imputed to them (Ro.4:5). That explains why Paul wrote that "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

Honest question about Moses' comment here:

Deut 6:24-25 (AKJV/PCE)​

(6:24) And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as [it is] at this day. (6:25) And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.
​

Do you think that he didn't really understand law and righteousness?

 

[dodge]

Since the gospel which was not revealed in the OT came in power and in the Holy Spirit (1 Thess.1:5) then it is certain that those who believe it do not have a blind faith.

According to Jesus the Gospel was in the OT. Sorry you cannot receive and see it because it is there.

Luk 16:31
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

[Right Divider]

According to Jesus the Gospel was in the OT. Sorry you cannot receive and see it because it is there.

Luk 16:31
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

The one true Gospel.... :doh:

 

[dodge]

The one true Gospel.... :doh:

Yep, the same one Jesus said Moses and the prophets taught. Of course the meaning was hid by God for a time but it is there in the OT. Sorry you are blind to it and as Jesus said if you or anyone ignores their prophecies they WILL NOT BELIEVE even though one rose from the dead.

Do you believe Jesus LIED ?

Luk 16:31
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

According to Jesus the Gospel was in the OT. Sorry you cannot receive and see it because it is there.

Luk 16:31
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

The heart and soul of the gospel we are to preach today is that the Lord Jesus died for our sins, that God "hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (2 Cor.5:21).

That truth is referred to as 'hidden wisdom" and it was kept secret because if the princes of the world knew it then they wouldn't have crucified Him:

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory" (1 Cor.7-8).​

That is why Paul refers to his gospel in the following way:

"Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God" (Ro.16:25-26).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Honest question about Moses' comment here:

Deut 6:24-25 (AKJV/PCE)​

(6:24) And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as [it is] at this day. (6:25) And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.
​

Do you think that he didn't really understand law and righteousness?

Notice that Moses uses the word IF here:

"And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us."​

I don't believe that Moses understood what Paul taught about the righteousness of God apart from law since he says in no uncertain terms that it was just now being revealed:

"But now apart from law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus"(Ro.3:21-24).​

 

[dodge]

The heart and soul of the gospel we are to preach today is that the Lord Jesus died for our sins, that God "hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (2 Cor.5:21).

That truth is referred to as 'hidden wisdom" and it was kept secret because if the princes of the world knew it then they wouldn't have crucified Him:

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory" (1 Cor.7-8).​

That is why Paul refers to his gospel in the following way:

"Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God" (Ro.16:25-26).​

Jerry, it is not my argument I am just believing what Jesus said.

Luk 16:31
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


Jesus said if they do not believe Moses and the prophets they would not believe even though He rose from the dead. I believe the Gospel is in the OT in entirety because Jesus said exactly that. Now whether one can "see" the Gospel in the OT or not that does NOT change what Jesus taught does it ?

The Prophet Isaiah foretold the death of our Messiah as our substitutional sacrifice.

Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed. (Isaiah 53:4-5)

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry, it is not my argument I am just believing what Jesus said.

Luk 16:31
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

So what? That says nothing about the fact that Christ died for our sins.

Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed. (Isaiah 53:4-5)

Let us look at this passage:

"Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven" (1 Pet.1:10-1).​

Here Peter is saying that the prophets searched diligently in an effort to determine what the prophecies concerning Christ's suffering did signify but it was not revealed unto them. Even the Twelve Apostles, those closest to the Lord Jesus, did not realize that He was going to die (Lk.18:31-34) or be resurrected (Jn.20:9) until shortly before those events. They certainly did not know the "purpose" of the Cross, that "Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God" (1 Pet.3:18).

Roger M. Raymer writes: "Concerning this salvation (cf. 'salvation' in vv. 5, 9) the prophets...searched intently and with the greatest care their own Spirit-guided writings. They longed to participate in this salvation and coming period of grace and tried to discover the appointed time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing. The pondered how the glorious Messiah could be involved in suffering" (Walvoord & Zuck, The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament [ChariotVictor Publishing, 1983], p.842).

Can you not understand the difference between things which are hidden from things which are openly revealed?

Evidently not!

 

[Right Divider]

Yep, the same one Jesus said Moses and the prophets taught. Of course the meaning was hid by God for a time but it is there in the OT. Sorry you are blind to it and as Jesus said if you or anyone ignores their prophecies they WILL NOT BELIEVE even though one rose from the dead.

Do you believe Jesus LIED ?

Luk 16:31
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

There are many good news' in the Bible.

 

[Interplanner]

There are many good news' in the Bible.

Where are the commentary police when 2P2P is being blathered? Nowhere, because they are really 2P2P police, asserting its police state.

Why should we read a comment on the ancient prophets when it is what the disciples knew before Peter's confession that matters?

Why should we pay any attention to Jerry when he splinters everything there is about the Bible: now we have Christ rising from the dead announced in advance but not for sins?

Jerry further says they only knew right before or as it happened. Does he not know that the confession/Trans is about halfway through? But that's not when it started. They obviously knew because they were so defensive about it (although some people cannot see defensiveness and denial...). What happened at the confession/Trans is that the real expectations of Judaism finally collided with the real truth of the Gospel. It wasn't pretty.

Why did the disciples do things before the confession/Trans like: 'no one who wants to make themselves king keeps himself secret'? Because they were infected with what Judaism THOUGHT was supposed to happen.

So 2P2P just keeps confusing us like the mainstream media today with its fake news. It's fake theology says not to quote commentaries, but then does itself. Then it quotes the commentary about the ancient prophets but says it is about the disciples, and on and on.

 

[dodge]

There are many good news' in the Bible.

Actually all the "events" that foretell,or are in type, salvation are about ONE good news and His name is Jesus.

 

[Interplanner]

Actually all the "events" that foretell,or are in type, salvation are about ONE good news and His name is Jesus.

Exactly. 2P2P has no sense of coalescence or crescendo. when Heb 4 refers to one in the wandering generation period, that has nothing to do with the (its) present Gospel which is one. The 'fulfillment of the ages (plural) has come' says I Cor 10; all the previous illustrations/typologies were to help people understand this one. Christ, for ex., fulfills the seder.

 

[Right Divider]

Actually all the "events" that foretell,or are in type, salvation are about ONE good news and His name is Jesus.

Yes, they are all about the LORD.... that does NOT make them all the same good news.

Even a little child can understand that.

 

[Right Divider]

Where are the commentary police when 2P2P is being blathered? Nowhere, because they are really 2P2P police, asserting its police state.

Why should we read a comment on the ancient prophets when it is what the disciples knew before Peter's confession that matters?

Why should we pay any attention to Jerry when he splinters everything there is about the Bible: now we have Christ rising from the dead announced in advance but not for sins?

Jerry further says they only knew right before or as it happened. Does he not know that the confession/Trans is about halfway through? But that's not when it started. They obviously knew because they were so defensive about it (although some people cannot see defensiveness and denial...). What happened at the confession/Trans is that the real expectations of Judaism finally collided with the real truth of the Gospel. It wasn't pretty.

Why did the disciples do things before the confession/Trans like: 'no one who wants to make themselves king keeps himself secret'? Because they were infected with what Judaism THOUGHT was supposed to happen.

So 2P2P just keeps confusing us like the mainstream media today with its fake news. It's fake theology says not to quote commentaries, but then does itself. Then it quotes the commentary about the ancient prophets but says it is about the disciples, and on and on.

Poor little IP is back with his silly rants.

The fact that you religious fanatics cannot understand plain language is a testament to your conviction to untruth.

 

[Nick M]

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

So only one taker to explain away what born of the Spirit is? As stupid as the explanation is, at least it was an effort.

The Spirit blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.

That makes no sense. Pizza is food, and so is pizza.

 

[daqq]

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

So only one taker to explain away what born of the Spirit is? As stupid as the explanation is, at least it was an effort.

The Spirit blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.

That makes no sense. Pizza is food, and so is pizza.

What I posted concerning that was not an explanation of what it means to be born of the Spirit. One would first need to actually understand what it means to be born of water, (which does not mean natural birth as it is used in John 3:5).

 

[Right Divider]

What I posted concerning that was not an explanation of what it means to be born of the Spirit. One would first need to actually understand what it means to be born of water, (which does not mean natural birth as it is used in John 3:5).

Of course it means physical birth.

John 3:6 (KJV)​

(3:6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
​

Even a child can understand it.