Theology Club: The Rapture is Found in the Epistle of James

[SaulToPaul 2]

You have no answer to what I said about James describing the Lord Jesus' appearance as being imminent. So now you try to prove that appearance cannot be described as being imminent and therefore you refuse to believe James.

The context determines what James is talking about. Not the greek word game.

The context is 2nd Coming, as I've shown.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The context determines what James is talking about. Not the greek word game.

The context is 2nd Coming, as I've shown.

You refuse to believe James when he makes it plain that the appearance of the Lord Jesus was imminent.

That proves that James was not referring to the second coming.

Instead of facing up to that truth you just run and hide from it.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

You refuse to believe James when he makes it plain that the appearance of the Lord Jesus was imminent.

That proves that James was not referring to the second coming.

Instead of facing up to that truth you just run and hide from it.

The context shows it to be the Second Coming. You may as well accept it. It isn't going to change.

Was the Rapture taught in the 4 gospels?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Jerry, you aren't a dummy. You can read James and see that it is soaked in tribulation language.

Is defending "the original MAD" more important than truth?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry, you aren't a dummy. You can read James and see that it is soaked in tribulation language.

Is defending "the original MAD" more important than truth?

Once again you want to change the subject. You continue to run and hide from the fact that James describes the appearance of the Lord Jesus as being "imminent."

The following passage from the book of Hebrews demonstrates that the Jewish believers were expecting an "imminent" return of the Lord Jesus:

"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look (apekdechomai) for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation" (Heb.9:28).​

Here the Greek word apekdechomai is used and it means "to expect, wait or look for" (The Analytical Greek Lexicon Revised, 37).

If the "appearing" of the Lord Jesus could not happen until certain prophesised events occured (such as the abomination of desolation of Matthew 24:15) then it is evident that before those events happened no one would be looking for that appearance, much less eagerly expecting that appearance:

apekdechomai: "To await eagerly or expectantly for some future event...to look forward eagerly, to await expectantly" (Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament Based on Semantic Domains; Volume 2, ed. Louw and Nida, 296).​

According to your ideas the author of Hebrews was telling the Jewish believers to be looking and waiting expectantly for the Lord's appearance even though he knew that he could not possibly appear at that time.

That is absurd and you are too smart to believe that illogical idea.

Is defending the teaching found in the Neo-MAD community more important than the truth?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Once again you want to change the subject. You continue to run and hide from the fact that James describes the appearance of the Lord Jesus as being "imminent."

Was the rapture taught in the 4 gospels?
Can you see the tribulation context of James?

These two questions are the crux of the argument. A greek word is not the crux of the argument.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Was the rapture taught in the 4 gospels?
Can you see the tribulation context of James?

These two questions are the crux of the argument. A greek word is not the crux of the argument.

Once again you want to change the subject. You just refuse to deal with the verses which contradict your ideas.

Are you willing to argue that the author of Hebrews would tell the Jewish believers to be looking for the appearance of the Lord Jesus even though he knew that He could not possibly appear when he told them to be eagerly expecting His appearance.

You just refuse to believe the truth found in the book of Hebrews and in the epistle to James. Earlier you said that you understood that James was speaking of an imminent appearing of the Lord Jesus but now you deny it.

No wonder you want to change the subject!

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Was the rapture taught in the 4 gospels?
Can you see the tribulation context of James?

These two questions are the crux of the argument. A greek word is not the crux of the argument.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

You just refuse to believe the truth found in the book of Hebrews and in the epistle to James.

Both books are in a tribulation context looking for the 2nd coming to receive the atonement.

I believe every word of each book.

:up:

 

[Totton Linnet]

Those believers who received the epistle of James are members of the Body of Christ. They were taught that the Lord Jesus could appear at the rapture at any moment, the same thing Paul taught.

Paul Sadler, one of the chief spokesmen within the Neo-MAD movement, says the following about the events which will happen when the Lord Jesus returns at the rapture:

"According to Paul's gospel the Rapture is 'imminent,' that is, it could take place at any moment. There are no signs, times, or seasons that will precede this glorious event" [emphasis mine] (Sadler, "The Present Obsession With the Anti-Christ," The Berean Searchlight, June, 1999, 7).​

Here is what James wrote:

"You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near. Don't grumble against one another, brothers and sisters, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door! (Jas 5:8-9).​

The Greek word translated "is near" at James 5:8 is eggizo and in this verse that word means "to be imminent" (A Greek English Lexicon, Liddell & Scott [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1940], 467).

In an article found on the "Pre-Trib Research Center" web site Dr. Renald E. Showers writes:

"In light of James' statements C. Leslie Mitton wrote, 'James clearly believed, as others of his time did, that the coming of Christ was imminent.' On the basis of James' statements we can conclude that Christ's coming was imminent in New Testament times and continues to be so today, and that this fact should make a difference in the way Christians live" [emphasis added] (Showers, The Imminent Coming of Christ).​

The words "the Judge is standing at the door" certainly speak of the fact that the coming of the Judge is "is near" and it certainly has the quality of imminency.

Paul Sadler, of the Neo-MAD community, correctly understands that only those in the Body of Christ will be caught up to meet the Lord Jesus at the imminent appearance of the Lord Jesus:

"The 'secret' resurrection that will take place at the Rapture should never be confused with the 'first' resurrection at the Second Coming of Christ. Those who rightly divide the Word of truth now see that only the members of the Body of Christ will be raised at the Rapture" [emphasis mine] (Sadler, Exploring the Unsearchable Riches of Christ [Stephens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1993], 167).​

Therefore, we can know with certainty that those who received the epistle of James are members of the Body of Christ.

Well I bleeve James and co are boc but you are all askew here Jerry, James is talking the Jewish understanding "the Judge is at the door"

The judgement comes 1,000 years after the rapture.

You put so much emphasis on this imminence and Paul did not

"let no one shake your mind that the rapture is imminent" is his line

"For that day cannot come ...." he goes on to give a whole parcel of stuff which must happen before any rapture....so Paul did not believe that the rapture was imminent.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Well I bleeve James and co are boc but you are all askew here Jerry, James is talking the Jewish understanding "the Judge is at the door"

Do you not know what the word "imminent" means?

You put so much emphasis on this imminence and Paul did not

"let no one shake your mind that the rapture is imminent" is his line

Here is what Paul said:

"For our citizenship is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body...The Lord is at hand (eggus)" (Phil.3:20-21;4:5).​

The Greek word eggus means "of times imminent" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

 

[Totton Linnet]

Well for those who are citizens of heaven, seated in heavenly places...the Lord is at hand....Jesus said the kingdom of God in imminent....you have to get over this word imminent.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Well for those who are citizens of heaven, seated in heavenly places...the Lord is at hand....Jesus said the kingdom of God in imminent....you have to get over this word imminent.

Why did you just ignore what I said to you?

To review, you said:

You put so much emphasis on this imminence and Paul did not

"let no one shake your mind that the rapture is imminent" is his line

If Paul did not think that the rapture was imminent then why did he say this?:

"For our citizenship is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body...The Lord is at hand (eggus)" (Phil.3:20-21;4:5).​

The Greek word eggus means "of times imminent" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Can you answer that?

 

[Totton Linnet]

Why did you just ignore what I said to you?

To review, you said:



If Paul did not think that the rapture was imminent then why did he say this?:

"For our citizenship is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body...The Lord is at hand (eggus)" (Phil.3:20-21;4:5).​

The Greek word eggus means "of times imminent" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Can you answer that?

I'll tell you why, because Paul said it 2,000 years ago, that's why.

So either Paul speaking by the Holy Ghost got it wrong, or your understanding [and whoever else's understanding] of imminent is wrong.

I'll tell you why I think it is the latter.

Because Paul fully spected that the church would become worldwide, he also made statements about the "endtimes" being perilous in a way that was completely inconceivable at the time he spoke it.

I mean that men would be lovers of self rather than lovers of God at that time was inconceivable EVERYBODY believed in some form of deity...Paul spoke about a great falling away from the church in the endtimes when the church was yet in her infancy and was spreading like wildfire.

He and Peter spoke about what would happen after they had left the scene...and Peter lived to be old.

So neither Peter or Paul believed that the rapture could happen at any time or soon.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So either Paul speaking by the Holy Ghost got it wrong, or your understanding [and whoever else's understanding] of imminent is wrong.

I'll tell you why I think it is the latter.

Then your argument is with the Greek experts who said that both Paul and James used a Greek word meaning "imminent" when they spoke of an appearance with the Lord Jesus.

The fact that Paul thought that he might be "caught up" at the rapture is evidence that he thought it was imminent:

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" (1 Cor.15:51-53).​

 

[Totton Linnet]

You put an extra meaning to imminent to make it mean it may happen soon or without warning.

The Lord specifically addressed that issue when He perceived that they expected it would happen immediately...He said it is like a man taking a journey into a far country who left his servants in charge...." there is no hint of immediacy in the signs of the end

You are saying it can happen without certain other things happening first....but Christ speaks about the terrible end times persecution, tribulation such as never was nor shall be again

"After the tribulation of those days....they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds"

Jesus was post trib.

It matches Paul in Thess exactly..."that day will not come ....without certain other things happening first"

 

[Danoh]

You put an extra meaning to imminent to make it mean it may happen soon or without warning.

The Lord specifically addressed that issue when He perceived that they expected it would happen immediately...He said it is like a man taking a journey into a far country who left his servants in charge...." there is no hint of immediacy in the signs of the end

You are saying it can happen without certain other things happening first....but Christ speaks about the terrible end times persecution, tribulation such as never was nor shall be again

"After the tribulation of those days....they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds"

Jesus was post trib.

It matches Paul in Thess exactly..."that day will not come ....without certain other things happening first"

You're right Jesus was Post-Trib.

Paul was Pre.

Romans 11:24-29 asserts both are valid... each, in their due season.

 

[Totton Linnet]

You're right Jesus was Post-Trib.

Paul was Pre.

Romans 11:24-29 asserts both are valid... each, in their due season.

I'm not sure what your position is Danoh....sounds very different from mine and would need a new thread

When Paul spoke about Ac setting himself against everything called god he was speaking [imv] about the same persecution that Jesus referred to.

 

[Totton Linnet]

'spose you think the Joos will go through the great trib [whistles to herself]

 

[Danoh]

'spose you think the Joos will go through the great trib [whistles to herself]

Perhaps I misunderstood you, Tot; I understood you to mean that "Jesus was post trib."