ECT The problem I see on Christian forums:

[Cross Reference]

Justification comes first, because God cannot sanctify you if you do not belong to Him.

Justification declares one clean --- exclusively through Jesus Christ and His Work on the Cross of Calvary --- NOT by anything we do/want/can/cannot do. Justification is totally, completely, exclusively from God.

Sanctification makes one clean and it is a lifelong process until one die or is raptured. Sanctification is the process of being conformed to His image.

How 'bout this?:

Sanctification is the new birth from above that unifies one's human spirit with the Holy Spirit and for the purpose of teaching that one, the ways of his Father?

 

[Interplanner]

Certainly the righteous of OT times didn't have a clue as to your explanation of things. What would you say to them if you could transport yourself back to their time frame?

They had lots of clues and suppressed them. Abraham had faith and it was credited to him as justification. David: blessed is the man to whom God does not impute iniquity.

Apparently the Law was going to have a child-trainer function no matter who it was used on. Gal 3:17 implies that Judaism replaced faith/the Gospel with the Law as far as promises and fulfillments go, but I don't know if that could have been prevented.

Obviously it was a lot of effort by Paul to 'backtrack' to faith as found in the OT, but it was there because there is only one Gospel down through time.

 

[Cross Reference]

They had lots of clues and suppressed them. Abraham had faith and it was credited to him as justification. David: blessed is the man to whom God does not impute iniquity.

Suppressed them?? Who told you that?

Apparently the Law was going to have a child-trainer function no matter who it was used on. Gal 3:17 implies that Judaism replaced faith/the Gospel with the Law as far as promises and fulfillments go, but I don't know if that could have been prevented.

Obviously it was a lot of effort by Paul to 'backtrack' to faith as found in the OT, but it was there because there is only one Gospel down through time.

Why assume that when his life in Christ was what it was?

 

[PureX]

Celebration or Surrender? . . . . . Oswald Chambers

We begin our Christian life by believing what we are told to believe, then we have to go on to so assimilate our beliefs that they work out in a way that redounds to the glory of God.

Not everyone begins this way.

If we are raised into a religion, we will indeed believe what we are told, as children, about the nature and existence of God. And then in time, we will hopefully re-evaluate what we've been taught relative to our experience of the truth of reality. We'll keep what makes sense to us (what works to the betterment of ourselves and our lives with others), and reject what does not.

If we come to religion as adults, it'll be because what we are already learning through our life experiences is that the religious ideals being proposed pass the test of our experience and chosen goals.

The danger is in multiplying the acceptation of beliefs we do not make our own. . . . . . . . . . . Every now and again we find ourselves lost in wonder at the marvel of the Redemption; it is a wholesome initial stage, but if it is made the final stage it is perilous. The difficulty of believing in the Redemption in the sense of assimilating it is that it demands renunciation. I have to give up my right to myself in complete surrender to my Lord before what I celebrate becomes a reality.

Sadly, what you seem to be defining, here, is a kind of self-induced psychosis intended to heighten religious fervor in leu of reality-based faith and conviction. Such fervor doesn't really do anyone any good, and acts more like a drug that one can too easily become addicted to than an actual faith-based life solution.

There is always the danger of celebrating what Jesus Christ has done and forgetting the need on our part of moral surrender to Him …

I agree, but it's not the surrender to some imaginary being from some religious story that makes the real difference, it's surrendering to the ideals and promises that the story of Jesus' life and death offer us, that matters. Because that's what makes us better people. Not delusions of holy bliss brought on by self-hypnotic flights of religious fervor.

I'm not sure you understand your own warning.

 

[Cross Reference]

Not everyone begins this way.

If we are raised into a religion, we will indeed believe what we are told, as children, about the nature and existence of God. And then in time, we will hopefully re-evaluate what we've been taught relative to our experience of the truth of reality. We'll keep what makes sense to us (what works to the betterment of ourselves and our lives with others), and reject what does not.

If we come to religion as adults, it'll be because what we are already learning through our life experiences is that the religious ideals being proposed pass the test of our experience and chosen goals.
Sadly, what you seem to be defining, here, is a kind of self-induced psychosis intended to heighten religious fervor in leu of reality-based faith and conviction. Such fervor doesn't really do anyone any good, and acts more like a drug that one can too easily become addicted to than an actual faith-based life solution.
I agree, but it's not the surrender to some imaginary being from some religious story that makes the real difference, it's surrendering to the ideals and promises that the story of Jesus' life and death offer us, that matters. Because that's what makes us better people. Not delusions of holy bliss brought on by self-hypnotic flights of religious fervor.

I'm not sure you understand your own warning.

You keep on believing that to your own perdition.


Start here if you want understanding that will save you:

Surrendering of one's life to God by Christ Jesus should never be about making you a better person. His so great salvation wasn't for that purpose at all. If you believe that, you are delusional. . .or many just stuck, unable to free yourself from your brand of religion.

 

[Interplanner]

Suppressed them?? Who told you that?

Apparently the Law was going to have a child-trainer function no matter who it was used on. Gal 3:17 implies that Judaism replaced faith/the Gospel with the Law as far as promises and fulfillments go, but I don't know if that could have been prevented.



Why assume that when his life in Christ was what it was?

Gal 3:17 (which is about Judaism at Paul's time) was about that suppression.

I'm not assuming the Law was a tutorial; it's a doctrine in Gal 4. But I don't know why there would be any conflict with Paul's life. His life was not effective because of the Law. It was because of the Gospel, through which the Spirit of God works.

 

[PureX]

Surrendering of one's life to God by Christ Jesus should never be about making you a better person.

Then there is no salvation in it. And the promise of Christ is empty religious gibberish.

Fortunately, your claim is untrue, and we can know it's untrue by our own experience of Christ's salvation in this life. And by how it changes our selves and our lives for the better. And changes the lives of others for the better, through us. If your "surrender to Jesus" isn't changing you for the better, then I think you have fallen for a dead religion, and bought into it's empty promises. And I feel sorry for you.

 

[Cross Reference]

Then there is no salvation in it. And the promise of Christ is empty religious gibberish.

Fortunately, your claim is untrue, and we can know it's untrue by our own experience of Christ's salvation in this life. And by how it changes our selves and our lives for the better. And changes the lives of others for the better, through us. If your "surrender to Jesus" isn't changing you for the better, then I think you have fallen for a dead religion, and bought into it's empty promises. And I feel sorry for you.

My claim is all truth in Christ and it is NOT about "humanism" of any stripe, as you would have it be. My relationship with God by Jesus Christ makes any profit of my life to others, incidental.

God wants and will have a vast family of Glorified sons who look just Him. Do you really want to argue with that?? Put Him first if you want understanding.

 

[PureX]

My claim is all truth in Christ and it is NOT about "humanism" of any stripe, as you would have it be.

If you are not a 'humanist', you don't know Christ at all. Because to love God is to love your fellow humans, and to love your fellow humans is to love God. That is the essence of Christ: God's love and forgiveness expressed in human form.

My relationship with God by Jesus Christ makes any profit of my life to others, incidental.

Sounds like religiosity, devoid of love, to me.

God wants and will have a vast family of Glorified sons who look just Him. Do you really want to argue with that?? Put Him first if you want understanding.

I think you have lost your mind and your soul to a bunch of religious blather. I hope you can find your way back to the reality of God's love and forgiveness as it's being shared with and among all your fellow humans, in the name of Christ. You'll be a lot better man for it.

 

[Cross Reference]

If you are not a 'humanist', you don't know Christ at all. Because to love God is to love your fellow humans, and to love your fellow humans is to love God. That is the essence of Christ: God's love and forgiveness expressed in human form.

Loving God, putting Him first, makes loving my neighbor as myself, incidental. If you loved Him and put Him first you would "know" that. Where are you in that thinking?

Sounds like religiosity, devoid of love, to me.

If you are looking for company, forget it? I am not your man.

I think you have lost your mind and your soul to a bunch of religious blather. I hope you can find your way back to the reality of God's love and forgiveness as it's being shared with and among all your fellow humans, in the name of Christ. You'll be a lot better man for it.

Your particular ignorance in Him is part and parcel of the reason why the church at large has been a failure.

You need to repent in a BIG way and put legs on your "profession" of faith, if faith is indeed a part of your profession. Seems to me that even the cross of Jesus Christ and the need for forgiveness of sins is unnecessary to you.

Can you "see" why I am saying these things to you. I am only throwing back to you the impression you have made.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

xBecause to love God is to love your fellow humans, and to love your fellow humans is to love God. That is the essence of Christ: x.

No.

The first commandment is to love God.

The second results from the first.

What is this essence you speak of?

LA

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

You are so spiritually deficient you have no idea about what kind of questions to ask nor how to answer the ones that a child might ask

Try and ask me a question and we'll see if your accusation is true, my childlike friend?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

No.

The first commandment is to love God.

The second results from the first.

What is this essence you speak of?

LA

Do you realize that every time you post, your IQ goes down one number?

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Do you realize that every time you post, your IQ goes down one number?

Take your rotting flesh elsewhere, it stinks.

 

[patrick jane]

You keep on believing that to your own perdition.


Start here if you want understanding that will save you:

Surrendering of one's life to God by Christ Jesus should never be about making you a better person. His so great salvation wasn't for that purpose at all. If you believe that, you are delusional. . .or many just stuck, unable to free yourself from your brand of religion.

Jesus surrendered His life for us.

 

[Cross Reference]

Jesus surrendered His life for us.

Jesus surrendered His Life, His will, to the WILL of His Father! Up until that point in time He had completed all that the Father required of him and was transfigured. It was then that the "something else"to be asked of Him was revealed. Read it for yourself . . for the first time. This is what makes His humanity so special!! He could have said, "No"!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Take your rotting flesh elsewhere, it stinks.

As Elvis used to say: "Thank you very much." By the way LA, you just lost another
precious number on your IQ. I'll let ya know when it's in the single digit area.

 

[Interplanner]

Jesus surrendered His Life, His will, to the WILL of His Father! Up until that point in time He had completed all that the Father required of him and was transfigured. It was then that the "something else"to be asked of Him was revealed. Read it for yourself . . for the first time. This is what makes His humanity so special!! He could have said, "No"!

He knew from the start, from before 'the experiment' that there would have to be the sacrifice of a righteous one for the unrighteous.

Yes, a person who sacrifices for the benefit of others is highly esteemed. This is not really a weighty theological question.

 

[Cross Reference]

He knew from the start, from before 'the experiment' that there would have to be the sacrifice of a righteous one for the unrighteous.

How about a verse or two to support your assertions?

Yes, a person who sacrifices for the benefit of others is highly esteemed. This is not really a weighty theological question.

I try not to be weighty. However, what you just wrote needs weight. Hot air has no substance..

 

[Lazy afternoon]

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: